Deck Testing - Round 1

[willng3]

To avoid a mess of posts on the Round 1 discussion thread and to make referencing easier, please post any results derived from testing in this thread.

[willng3]

Testing of PUgons versus Fire:

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5bs 5bs 5bt 5bt 5bt 5bt 5bt 5bt 5de 5de 5de 61q 61q 61q 61q 61r 61r 61r 61r 61r 624 624 624 7ac 7ac 7ac 7ac 7bu 7bu 7bu 7bu 8pu

Fire Grabbow:  Countered
4-1 player 3-2 AI; 4-1 revised
So I wanted to cover all the bases here and ran 1 trial with me using PUgons, another with the AI playing PUgons, and then me again after I was aware of the AI's stupidity issues.  I dare say this is a good counter if it remained this positive the entire time.  Also, I should mention that there's a huge possibility of whoever's playing me having to adapt to defeating my deck since using Graboids yields several different possible strategies.

Immo Rush w/ Rewinds:  RNG festival
5-5 player
The Rewinds were what caused all the problems here.  Had this been just a straight up Immo Rush then the outcome would most likely have been in my favor.

Bone Wall Firestall:  Not countered
1-4 player, 2-3 player
Yeah there's just almost no hope of beating this with PUgons.  I changed my strategy to be more rushy during a second set of tests which seemed to work well at first, but didn't keep up with the same trend.

FireSancStall:  Hard countered
5-0 player
Now I thought this was just hilarious.  3 dead cards and yet they didn't make a single freaking difference in the long run.  Considering how I managed to win each of these duels with little effort, I'm convinced that this wasn't just another case of derpish AI.

So in conclusion it's not quite as stable of a counter as I had hoped, but it counters two of the decks I was most worried about so it's still a possibility.  I almost wonder if removing the Silences for something else would yield better results.

Continuing Fire testing using other deck possibilities.

[willng3]

Not bothering with AdrenaTitans versus Fire

Testing of Frogtal versus Fire:

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5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 61t 61t 61t 622 624 624 624 7ae 7ae 7ae 7ae 7ae 7ae 80i 80i 80i 8pu

Grabbow:  RNG Festival
5-5 player
So if you get a crappy quanta start or the opponent draws a single freaking Fog Shield then this is seriously not in your favor.

Immo Golems w/ Rewinds:  More RNG
6-4 player
Deflags and speed are bad news.  Having Rewinds threatening you doesn't help anything either.

FireSancStall:  Hard countered with skill
5-0 player
You have to stall out Fahrenheit with Dim Shield and then wait until you can Fractal Frogs one turn, then produce enough to fire off another Fractal the very next turn.  If you get an unmerciful quanta draw at the beginning then you won't have to worry about the timing as much.  However, I did not test against a version using Firestorm.

Bone Wall Firestall:  Hard countered
5-0 player
Similar scenario to the above with the exception that you're using Dims to block Arsenic.  Silences make this really easy.

So it's still not as reliable of a counter as I would prefer.  Considering replacing the Dims with Lightnings in the Frogtal as well, however, but that will have to wait until tomorrow for testing.

[willng3]

Alright this is more like it.

Testing of Frogtal -3 Dims +3 Lightnings vs. Fire:

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5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 61q 61q 61q 622 624 624 624 7ae 7ae 7ae 7ae 7ae 7ae 80i 80i 80i 8pu

Grabbow:  Counter
8-2 player
Something weird happened during one of these matches, like not drawing a Fractal or something.

Immo Rush w/ Rewinds:  Less reliably counters
7-3 player
This more or less becomes dependent on drawing Lightnings, but even without them this Frogtal is fully capable of 7 turn wins.

Bone Wall Firestall
9-1 player
Not much of a challenge here.  Firestorms would make things more interesting.

FireSancStall
5-0
Yeah, still not much of a threat.  Firestorms would still be pretty dangerous.

[willng3]

Testing of standard Grabbow vs. Aether:

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4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 55q 590 590 590 590 590 5bs 5bs 5bu 5bu 5c1 5c1 5c5 5c7 5c7 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 61q 7dm 7n0 8pm

EQ Grabbow
 

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4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 590 590 593 593 593 593 61o 61o 61r 61r 61r 61r 61r 61r 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 77g 77g 77g 8pm

7-3 player

Lightning Grabbow

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4vh 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 590 590 5c1 5ia 5ia 61o 61o 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61t 61t 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 77g 77g 77g 8pm

5-5

Devtal

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5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5ut 5ut 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61t 61t 622 622 622 622 622 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 7ta 7ta 7td 8pt

5-0

Bonebolt

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52o 52o 52o 52o 52o 52o 52q 52q 52r 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61t 61t 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 71b 71b 71b 8pk

2-3

I don't like the results versus Bonebolt, so I'm going to continue testing.  Trying Druid Grabbow next.

[willng3]

And now much improved testing vs. Aether, Druid Grabbow:

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4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 590 590 590 590 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5c5 5c5 5c5 5c5 5c5 5c5 5c7 5c7 5c7 5de 5de 5oi 5oi 5oi 5oi 5oi 8pm

EQ Grabbow:  Questionable

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4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 590 590 593 593 593 593 61o 61o 61r 61r 61r 61r 61r 61r 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 77g 77g 77g 8pm

4-1 player
This is kind of sketchy because the AI burrows Shriekers way too freaking often and it sure as hell can't play our Grabbow correctly either.  Beware that the opponent PUing AdrenaStaffs will make this matchup completely dependent on the coinflip.

Lightning Grabbow:  Countered

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4vh 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 590 590 5c1 5ia 5ia 61o 61o 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61t 61t 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 77g 77g 77g 8pm

4-1
Ideally it's best to old off on playing Adren on Staffs for as long as possible when using this deck.  Lightnings can be a bit annoying, but are most threatening when used on AdrenaStaffs.

Devtal:  Countered

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5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5ut 5ut 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61t 61t 622 622 622 622 622 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 7ta 7ta 7td 8pt

4-1
Strangely this single loss occurred because the AI drew 0 Devs and instead Fractal'd Vamps very quickly.  I expect a Devtal used against us to use both Steals and Lightnings, therefore Dim Shields delaying death won't be very common to see.

Bonebolt:  Hard countered

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52o 52o 52o 52o 52o 52o 52q 52q 52r 61q 61q 61q 61q 61q 61t 61t 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 71b 71b 71b 8pk

5-0
Yeaaaaaaah this is a hard counter, but you've gotta play the deck right.  You absolutely cannot evolve Graboids unless you're certain you will kill the AI that turn.  Avoid using Adren on Staffs until Poison damage becomes too threatening or the opponent is very low on Lightnings.

[willng3]

Alright I did some more testing against Gravity...but there's a few problems.

First the Devtosis I tested:

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5c6 5c6 5c6 5c9 5c9 5c9 5c9 5c9 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5ul 5ul 5ul 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5up 5up 8pt

Discord/BH:  Not a counter

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4vd 4vd 4vd 4vf 4vf 4vf 4vl 4vl 4vl 4vl 50u 55k 55k 55k 55k 55r 55v 55v 55v 55v 55v 55v 576 576 576 576 576 6ts 6ts 6ve 8pj

2-...
I stopped playing games after I noticed Devtosis go 4 losses.  Bottom line is that it's just too slow for it to be able to handle Discord.

PU Titans:  Hard countered

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55s 55s 55s 55s 561 561 561 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 61r 61r 61r 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 7n2 7n2 7n2 8pu

5-0
Unless you go a game without drawing a single Dev for like 8 turns, this Titans deck doesn't stand a chance.

The DBH deck results has me a bit concerned, so I tried something else.

Crustosis:

by willng3

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5c5 5c6 5c6 5c6 5c9 5c9 5c9 5c9 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5ll 5ll 5ll 5ll 5ll 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 8pq

*Not completely sure about the code for this as I neglected to save it; 2 Pends were upped.

Discord/BH:  Hard countered

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4vd 4vd 4vd 4vf 4vf 4vf 4vl 4vl 4vl 4vl 50u 55k 55k 55k 55k 55r 55v 55v 55v 55v 55v 55v 576 576 576 576 576 6ts 6ts 6ve 8pj

9-1
I'm somewhat surprised by these results, but numbers don't lie.

PU Titans:  Not a counter

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55s 55s 55s 55s 561 561 561 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 61r 61r 61r 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 7n2 7n2 7n2 8pu

4-1
Weird.  Why would I say it's not a counter when it's 4-1?  Because this is the results against the AI only.  A human player would be able to sit back and not play anything but Dim Shields and Catapults until they were able to fly 3 Titans for a OTK (Titans do 34 damage when Catapult'ed).

Unfortunately the only other real alternatives we have are the Wings deck, Firestall, PUgons and Mono Life...all of which are hard-countered by either one of these decks more so than Devtosis or Crustosis.

However, I noticed two Gravity members reading over the Life archives today and found them observing the Round 2 and Round 4 deck threads of last War.  In either one of those threads I can safely say that none of the decks used there can counter PU Titans reliably.  Furthermore, all of the decks we used against Gravity last War seemed to revolve around CC of some type, making Animated Titans all the more sensible.  I think it's wise to go with Devtosis here.
We're running a little bit pressed for time here, so I'm going to compose a list of decks and opponents which still need to be tested and that everyone should help test:

- I decided that PUgons with Silences and extra Dims (since we're not using any in Frogtal) would be a good possibility to use.  AdrenaTitans is also an option.

- Firestall or PUgons are probably our best options for now.  I'm mainly worried about Ghostal, and I suspect that Firestall won't be able to handle that.

- We're going to have to use our Wings deck here.  It's not the most reliable counter in the world, but Entropy's just too unpredictable for a complete counter everything deck to be used.

[Helston]

Testing vs Time in progress (stopped for the night).

Life/Fire duo vs Ghostal - Not a counter

I tried a variety of Life/Fire duos - 40 card stall, 30 card stall, Nature's Wrath, a couple of modifications of Nature's Wrath, and nothing even came close to matching the Ghostal. The AI can't play a Ghostal so I've been using it, and it's far too easy to burst down the duos.

[drolly]

I managed to do some tests versus Light and Fire while occasionally chatting with will. Hopefully my humble results are useful in some way despite being a bit sketchy in nature:

Light

• Observation: Light's decks can vary much, here are some examples from last War:
  
  Spoiler for Light's decks from War #4:

  RoL/Hope
  

  by Zeru

  

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  5la 5la 5lk 5lk 5lk 5lm 5mq 5mq 5mq 61o 61o 61o 61o 61u 622 622 622 622 622 63a 63a 63a 63a 63a 7jp 7jp 7jp 7jp 7jp 7jp 8pu

  
  Duo
  

  by majofa

  

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  55s 55s 55s 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5ld 5ld 5ll 5ll 5ll 5ll 5ll 5ll 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 745 745 745 7jo 7jo 7jo 7la 7la 7la 8pl

  
  Mono
  

  by light_sefi

  

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  5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5la 5la 5la 5la 5la 5ld 5ld 5lh 5lh 5li 5lm 5lm 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 7ju 7ju 7ju 8pq

  
  Vader Sader
  

  by light_sefi

  

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  5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5ld 5ld 5ll 5ll 5ll 5ll 5ll 5ll 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5up 5up 5v2 5v2 5v2 7tb 7tb 7tb 8pt

  
  Winged blessed Pegasi
  

  by NikaZaslavsky

  

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  5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5lb 5lb 5lb 5lb 5lb 5lb 5lf 5lf 5lf 5lf 5lf 5lh 5mq 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 7jo 7la 7la 8pr

  
  Duo
  

  by suxerz

  

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  5la 5la 5li 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 61q 61r 61r 61r 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 622 6rk 7ju 7ju 8pu

  
  Duo
  

  by Kakerlake

  

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  5i4 5i4 5ib 5ib 5ib 5ie 5ie 5ie 5ie 5ie 5ie 5jm 5jm 5ld 5lh 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 7ju 7ju 7ju 8pp

  
  FireSancStall
  

  by majofa

  

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  5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f6 5f6 5f7 5f7 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 5mq 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dl 7dl 7dl 7f2 7f2 7k2 8po

  
  Duo
  

  by girlsgeneration

  

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  5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5l8 5la 5la 5la 5la 5lh 5li 5lm 5lm 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 7ju 7ju 7ju 8ps

  
  
• Problem with assigning decks: PUgons could work well against most of these decks (to be tested) but we'll likely have to use it against Time. AdrenaTitans can be an alternative but it'd be in conflict with Druid Grabbow vs. Aether.
  
  Spoiler for chatlog:

  willu: It looks like we're probably going to have to use AdrenaTitans against Light.
  drolly: Why?
  willu: Because Firestall won't work against Time's Ghostal, therefore we're going to need to use PUgons there. Since PUgons is going to Time that would leave Firestall and AdrenaTitans versus Light.
  [...]
  willu: Oh. We can't use AdrenaTitans with that Grabbow being used against Aether -_-
  [...]
  willu: Not enough Flying Weapons.
• Testing a Healing Firestall against some Light decks:
  
  by drolly

  

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  5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c4 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5f0 5f0 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f7 5f7 5f7 5gi 5gi 8po
  
  General observation: Counters FireSancStall nicely due to faster quanta production. However, useless against decks with Golden Dragons or Archangels (too high HP, need to sacrifice a bolt, adding ragepots won't help much as you need 2 to take down 1 creature, Thorne Carapace is too slow).
• Suggestion by will: "Rushing" Firestall without Heals and faster quanta production:
  
  by drolly

  

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  5c4 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5f0 5f0 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f7 5f7 5f7 5gi 5gi 8po
  
  Unfortunately, this doesn't outrush creature-based decks either.

Fire

• Decks to run tests against:
  
  Spoiler for Fire's decks from War #4:

  Fire's Grabbow
  

  by TheForbiddenOracle

  

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  4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 590 590 590 590 590 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f6 5f6 5fb 5fb 5fb 5fb 5fb 5fb 5gi 5ia 5og 71a 74e 7ds 8pm

  
  Immo Rush with Rewinds
  

  by morningstar

  

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  5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f6 5f6 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5fa 5fa 5fa 5fa 5fa 5fa 5fc 5l9 5l9 5l9 5l9 5l9 5l9 5ur 7q4 7q4 7q4 8pm

  
  Poison Firestall
  

  by TheForbiddenOracle

  

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  52o 52o 52o 52o 52o 52r 52r 52r 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 71a 71a 71b 8pk

  
  Frozen Steam Machines
  

  by Jocko

  

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  5f6 5f6 5f6 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5ia 5ib 5ib 5ib 5ii 5ii 5ii 5ii 7gp 7gp 7h2 8pp

  
  FireSancStall
  

  by Dogg

  

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  5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f5 5f7 5f7 5fb 5fb 5fb 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5gi 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 7dl 7k2 7k2 8pq

  
  
• Sudden idea:
  

  willu: What if we tried to Firestall Fire?
  drolly: Would Ragepots help vs. Fire?
  willu: Yes, absolutely.
  willu: Wondering if Deflags would be useful for Arsenic.

  Based on this, I threw together the following:
  
  by drolly

  

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  5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c4 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5f0 5f0 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f6 5f6 5f6 5f7 5f7 5f7 5fb 5fb 5fb 5fb 5gi 5gi 8po
• Quick testing results:
  
  • Works well against the Immo Rush and the Grabbow (early Arsenic can become a threat if not deflagged).
  • Very weak against Poison Firestall: Too less Deflags, Bone Wall renders Fahrenheit useless. If you're very lucky, you can achieve a deckout.
  • Steam Machines (esp. upped) can be tricky to counter, you may have to sacrifice a bolt. Upgraded Rage Elixirs can help here. But in general, your chances aren't bad even with an unupped deck.
  • FireSancStall: Use Deflags for Fahrenheits. Get out Emerald Shield and you win. The quanta production rates seem roughly equal. An OTK scenario seems to be most likely because both players have access to strong healing effects.

[Helston]

Some proper results vs Time. PUgon didn't perform quite as well as my initial impressions led me to believe it would.

PUgon (and variations thereof)

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5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bt 5bt 5bt 5bt 5bt 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 61r 61r 61r 61t 61t 61t 624 624 80b 80b 8pu

SancStall 4-6, not a counter

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5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rm 5ro 5ro 5ro 5ro 5rs 5ru 5ru 5t2 5t2 5t2 5t2 5t2 7q0 7q5 7q5 8pq

Had five Dim Shields before I found out we'd probably use a few in Frogtal. Probably would've been 3-7 or worse against a human even with the extra dim shields. The sanctuaries killed the chance of a RT-immune burst. I managed to outrush it once, and the other two times I stalled for long enough to pull out the win.

Ghostal, impossible to test, might be a counter

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5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5ro 5ro 5ru 5ru 5t2 5t2 5t2 5t2 5t2 5t2 5t2 5t2 5t2 61t 61t 61t 61t 622 622 7q5 7q5 8pu

Unfortunately the AI can play neither Ghostal nor PUgon properly. I've tried from both points of view, trying to substitute cards in so that I could get an idea, but nothing seems to work. From Time's point of view it looked like it was a counter if played correctly, and there was no way to get close to simulating a Ghostal when playing with PUgon. Even with a whole lot of matches, it's difficult to judge which deck wins out, although it definitely favoured PUgon a fair bit when it had five shields.

Ghostmare 4-6, not a counter

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5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rk 5rk 5rk 5ro 5ro 5ru 5ru 5ru 5ru 5ru 5ru 5t2 5t2 5t2 5up 5up 5up 5v1 5v1 5v1 5v1 7q0 7q0 7ri 8pt

A well rounded Ghostmare causing all sorts of problems. A few RTs up its sleeve to take care of Dragons, Nightmare for the hand denial and Steals to remove the dim shields. Your best bet is either a dim chain leading into one or both Silences, or that the Ghostmare has a bad start.

Dune Scorpians 3-7, not a counter

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55q 55q 55q 55q 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 5ro 5ro 5rt 5rt 5rt 5rt 5rt 5rt 74a 74a 8pl

I might've won one more if I had played better from the start, but Reverse Times are main the problem. Without silence, or an incredibly lucky start, you don't stand a chance.

Grabbow 2-7, not a counter

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4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 590 590 590 5og 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5ri 5ri 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 5t2 5t2 71a 77g 77g 7dm 7dm 7q5 8pm

Just realised this deck had too many upgrades. Might've fared a little better against a more probably deck, but six reverse times are again too much to handle.