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Round 1 Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39239.msg487889#msg487889
« on: April 26, 2012, 05:52:26 pm »
Chatroom:  http://piratepad.net/OldLadySoap



Deckbuilding:
Duel phase has started

Duels:
Round has ended




Spoiler for Salvages:

Spoiler for Discards:



Spoiler for Event Card:
Event Card:

Notes:  Generals will reply to a topic within their team sections and place a bid of 1 card or higher specifying both the number of cards bid and which cards are to be part of the bid.  The deadline for posting the bid is 24 hours prior to the deckbuilding deadline and the relic won is useable immediately.  If no bid is posted it will be assumed 1 card is sacrificed and will be chosen at random.  If a bid is placed but cards are not specified, they will be chosen at random.  All cards bid in this manner are lost, regardless of whether or not it is the highest bid.



Match-ups:
Spoiler for Hidden:
willng3 (General) vs. :fire mrpaper (Salvager)
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
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5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 61q 61q 61q 622 622 624 624 624 7ae 7ae 7ae 7ae 7ae 7ae 80i 80i 8pu


Helston (Strategist) vs. :aether deuce22 (General)
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4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 590 590 590 590 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5c5 5c5 5c5 5c5 5c5 5c5 5c7 5c7 5c7 5de 5de 5oi 5oi 5oi 7n2 7n2 8pm


Marsu (Assassin) vs. :entropy Jaymanfu (Salvager)
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5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5bt 5bt 5bt 5bt 5bt 5bt 5og 5on 5on 5on 5oo 5oo 5ol 5ol 5ol 7n8 7n8 8pr


killsdazombies (Lt.) vs. :light Pineapple (Scout)
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5bs 5bs 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5bt 5bt 5bt 5bt 5bt 61r 61r 61r 61r 61r 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 624 624 624 7ac 7ac 7bu 7bu 7bu 8pu


UnderneathTheLens (Salvager) vs. :gravity Odii Odsen (Salvager)
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5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5c6 5c6 5c6 5c9 5c9 5c9 5c9 5c9 5ul 5ul 5ul 5um 5um 5um 5um 5up 5up 7t6 7t6 8pt


drolly (Scout) vs. :time PlayerOa (Salvager)
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5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c2 5c4 5f0 5gi 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5f4 5fb 5fb 5fb 5fb 5f7 5f7 5f7 7dg 7f2 8po
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 02:00:30 pm by Helston »
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Offline Helston

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Re: Round 1 Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39239.msg488279#msg488279
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2012, 07:16:08 am »
In regards to the event card, the first thing we need to ask ourselves is how valuable a relic (meaning one extra upgrade for everyone) is. I wouldn't say that one extra upgrade for everyone would be worth more than five or six cards. As for which cards we discard, it'd probably be best to start with that extra Black Dragon we've got and then get rid of some Emerald Pendulums.

We're facing :aether (vs duece22), :fire (willu), :entropy, :light, :gravity and :time. Will has 8 upgrades, KDZ has 5 and everyone else has 2.

Semi-random pairing of decks , players and opponents from someone who's got no real idea what he's doing to get the ball rolling:

Drolly (Sc) with Grabbow vs :aether (general)
Will (G, obviously) with PUgon (switch dim shields for silences) vs :fire
UTL (Sa) with Nature's Wrath vs :gravity
KDZ (L) with Frogtal (minus one slience, plus one lobotomizer) vs :light
Marsu (A) with Shockwave Dragons vs :time
Helston (St) with Monks vs :entropy

Actually, we could change some of the roles around a bit, seeing the non-General/Lt. ones aren't that important (barring strategist, which doesn't affect how we duel anyway).

Edit: Pendulums, not pillars.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 07:26:15 am by Helston »
[15:02:07] Jocko [»] Helston: You killed a bunch of bunnies with nuclear weapons

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Re: Round 1 Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39239.msg488380#msg488380
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2012, 12:35:21 pm »
from someone who's got no real idea what he's doing to get the ball rolling
A motto which applies to this post, too. I yet have to come up with an excellent, comprehensive and idiot-proof strategy, so I decided to jot down some random thoughts instead:

Event card. Such a nice example of game theory. The only thing that makes my head hurt is that I have to play the game ... well, my approach would be similar to Helston's, i.e. estimate the value of a relic. However, the bad thing about the "auction" is that we can only "lose" in the following sense: (Disclaimer: I admit that this argument is not totally waterproof.) Let's say an additional relic is worth X cards to us. If we bid less, we'll have to be sure to get overbid (everyone wants dat relics), resulting in a certain loss of X cards. If we bid more than X, we'll lose something even if we win the auction. So we somehow have to bid X cards. If another team overbids us, we'll lose X cards. If we happen to place the highest bid, we could as well have bid less. If every team bids X cards, everyone gains a relic. But then we should have bid X+1 because it would have given us a huge edge against the other teams. (That's the reason why agreements between our generals won't work here.) :-\ Another approach could be to estimate how many cards of our vault are expendable. I agree with Helston, these are the ones we added last-minute (see team chat) except for the Cockatrices (no Mono Life rush without 6 cocks), especially the 3rd Black Dragon. If we throw these into the auction, we could convince ourselves that we don't lose anything. Man, I'm so happy that I'm not the general ... :-[

On to more important things:
Member roles. One of my dreams has come true, we're able to decide which member will fight which opposing element and exchange their respective roles! My interpretation of the roles is the following:
GeneralFixed opponent. Having to face another element's general means that you'll get an opponent who is significantly harder to beat.
Lieutenant+3 upgrades. Should be matched up against an element which we expect to be hard to beat. And he has access to stronger decks (for example, KDZ could play AdrenaTitans in Round 1).
StrategistDoesn't have any advantage in duels that I can see :(
AssassinUseful if we want to do great damage to a team. Can become useful in later War.
SalvagerWe want relics so we'll do good by letting him fight the easiest opponent we expect.
ScoutCan explore his opponent's vault. If he wins, he'll answer questions like, "Is Aether going for Devtal/Frogtal? How many Firestalls do we have to expect from Team Earth?" Should get an appropriate matchup.

Decks to play. I'm not surprised that Helston doesn't assign AdrenaTitans, a deck I consider to be one of our strongest, to will or KDZ. If we did, we'd give away this gem and encourage other teams to throw all their Reverse Times, Freezes and Lobotomizers at us. For R1, our decks ought to be somewhat boring but nevertheless damn effective. If I had more than no idea about what to expect from the other teams, I'd give my suggestions which to take against whom. But my inspiration has yet to come :( ... *points at strategy threads*
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 12:38:15 pm by drolly »
Team :life, reigned by :aether: Long live Frogtal! - Wat

Offline willng3Topic starter

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Re: Round 1 Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39239.msg488611#msg488611
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2012, 10:53:12 pm »
Alright got the first post updated.

The Event Card
Well, I personally don't find Relics all that important unless it gives us access to about 5 upgrades per person.  With that amount any one of us would be able to build a decent Frogtal or Animate Weapon deck.  I also have little faith in putting our hopes in our Support Teams for supplying us with a reliable source of Relics.  Therefore 5 upgrades seems like a far off number and 1 extra Relic probably won't make much of a difference in the bigger picture.  I'm going to support bidding a single Black Dragon and being done with it.  If you disagree, I'm all ears.

Match-ups
Several of Helston's proposed match-ups look good to me, although I'll have to do a bit of testing to make sure regardless.
:fire - Expecting to see either an Immo rush equipped with a bunch of CC or a Firestall.  Sot is well known for preferring stalls which ironically makes a rush all the more likely.
  • PUgons equipped with both Silences and Lightnings gives us CC protection against Firestalls (barring Sanctuary usage) and CC for Immo Rushes.  Dragons are also resistant to CC in general as a bonus.  Upping quanta sources first is going to be a priority for me as it just means I'll be able to win much faster.
  • AdrenaTitans is also a possibility, though I agree that it would be smart to keep this hidden for now.
  • Frogtal with Silences is a possibility as well, but if they decide to use a FireSancStall then we're at a considerable disadvantage.
:aether - Common sense tells me to expect Devtal or Bonebolt here, but a Grabbow with a bunch of Lightnings would probably be a likely choice as well (see Round 1 of last War against Fire for a similar scenario).
  • A Grabbow would probably work against Bonebolt for the simple reason that if the opponent can't Lightning anything then the deck loses a lot of its nuance.  Aether used a similar tactic against Time during War 3 with the results I'm expecting.  Devtal should be countered pretty well, but random utility cards such as Dim Shields or Lightnings could complicate things.  However, I don't see our own Grabbow beating Aether's Grabbow.  I'll need to test all of this more.
  • Frogtal might work against all 3 decks, but I'm naturally concerned about the Devtal match up.
:gravity - With vaults being severely limited in terms of off-element cards, I'm somewhat doubtful that we would see a Grabbow or anything else using Novae in the first Round from them; Death seems like a more logical choice given the ability to splash random Purifies.  Rather, I would expect to see anything using Dims, Wings, Discords or possibly a Firestall.  They will not attempt to stall us unless they use a lot of CC as well.
  • With this in mind, Devtosis or, better yet, Pestosis seems like a good choice here.  Gravity has shown a historical weakness to Devtal so this seems plausible.  Of course, CC is pretty unkind to this deck.
  • PUgons with Lightnings would also be a good choice here.  CC is pretty useless against the Dragons and Lightnings serves to deter opposing rushes or get the Dragons under Gravity Shield.
  • Just about anything with Lobos and Dim Shields.  Momentum gets taken care of while Frogs or whatever else can just roam free.  Something rushier like Frogtal would make this a better match-up against Cata-Titans.
:light - I'll expect either Dims or Wings here, if not a Firestall.  I wouldn't expect a deck such as Blessed Pegasus or a Grabbow for the simple reason that we have access to decks that leave them in the dust.
  • Frogtal with Silences would work well against the first two, but Sancs complicate things against Firestall.  I'll need to test this one as well, as I know for a fact that Light's FireSancStalls are much weaker than Fire's.
:time - Ghostal with Dims is definitely a high risk here.  They used Wings versus us during our first match up last War, so we might see this again.  An :entropy duo with Discord might be used against us as well.  Ghosts are probably their biggest resource, so we may as well counter them as much as possible.
  • A duo with Wings and Shockwaves is probably our greatest chance to hard counter those decks, though it might be a bit obvious.
  • Our largest Firestall also might work here, but I'd be most concerned with how it would deal with Ghostal.
:entropy - With the restriction of 6 Graboids in their starting Vault the odds of us having to face a Grabbow during the first round is reduced significantly.  Instead we'll be at greater risk of facing Mono Entropy decks with a splash of control such as Reverse Time, Pandebonium, Discord/BH, or some other obscure Novabow.
  • Our Wings deck counters just about all of these except Pandebonium.  I'm not too sure how likely it is we'll see that one over the other decks.
  • As it turns out, Sanctuary does not counter Discord despite being designed to do so ::).  No to Monks.

Oh and Member Roles...I'll have to decide on those after I'm satisfied with our deck match ups.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 11:00:08 pm by willng3 »
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Offline Helston

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Re: Round 1 Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39239.msg488773#msg488773
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2012, 04:11:25 am »
It'd probably help if I showed my reasoning for the matchups:

:aether The grabbow was based on the potential of facing a devtal or bonebolt, as will suggested in team chat. I hadn't considered Frogtal because of the Devtal threat, and also hadn't checked their strategy last War.

:fire will, you've managed to get my reasoning for PUgon almost dead on. With the CC to stop an immorush and the PU with the high HP of emerald dragons to try to burst down a stall, PUgon was what I saw to be the best option. However, I tend to forget that sanctuary counters silence, which was part of the reason I thought to include those (aside from the fact that dim shields are very risky against Deflags). I didn't want to use Adrenatitans here not so that we wouldn't reveal our hand, but instead because it is too inconsistent to reliably beat an fast immorush. However, keeping quiet about it also has its advantages.

:gravity This was more or less a guess.

:light Also more or less a guess, but I've got a hunch the lightnings would be handy. Again, I forgot that sanctuary is a hard counter to silence.

:time This was a bit more thought out, because time has very few answers to Wings. Ghosts were the obvious target for them, with Owl's Eyes helping out against Sundials and the combination of those with Shockwaves being enough CC to stop anything they pull out.

:entropy Monks was one of the few things left in the hat, and seemed more appropriate than any of the other options.

[15:02:07] Jocko [»] Helston: You killed a bunch of bunnies with nuclear weapons

Offline Helston

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Re: Round 1 Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39239.msg489501#msg489501
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2012, 12:40:38 pm »
WIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!

Don't forget to bid!
[15:02:07] Jocko [»] Helston: You killed a bunch of bunnies with nuclear weapons

Offline willng3Topic starter

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Re: Round 1 Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39239.msg489658#msg489658
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2012, 06:13:12 pm »
WIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!

Don't forget to bid!
Damn.  I hadn't realized that this was due 24 hours before deckbuilding time was over.  Well, we lose a Shockwave instead of a Dragon; hopefully that doesn't do too much damage in the future.
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Re: Round 1 Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39239.msg489817#msg489817
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2012, 01:56:01 am »
Specifically applicable to this Round:
***RULE UPDATE***

2.2. MEMBER ROLES

2. Lieutenant
Lieutenant is second in command.  The General may not assign this role to himself.  Lieutenants act as liaison for the Support Team, submitting actions to the Warmasters.
 
"If one team member is unable to perform his or her duties, the Lieutenant is responsible for performing the job of that team member."  Line was removed due to it no longer being necessary with the way roles and duties are able to be changed at a moment's notice.

 
6. Scout
A Scout may post the name of two cards before the deckbuilding deadline each round.  If the Scout wins the battle, s/he learns the number of said cards that were in his/her opponent’s vault at the beginning of the round.  The posts may should state the round number and cards being scouted only.  Only the Scout may make this post.

For instance:  Round 2 -  Short Bow and Quantum Pillar.  You may have the pictures of the cards in question or simply the names, but there should be no more than the Round number and the scouted cards in the actual post in order to make sure the WMs do not mistake what you are scouting.
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Re: Round 1 Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39239.msg489950#msg489950
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2012, 08:26:03 am »
Proposed match-ups:

Versus :fire:
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Deck import code : [Select]
5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 5de 61q 61q 61q 622 622 624 624 624 7ae 7ae 7ae 7ae 7ae 7ae 80i 80i 8pu


Versus :aether:
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4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 590 590 590 590 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5c5 5c5 5c5 5c5 5c5 5c5 5c7 5c7 5c7 5de 5de 5oi 5oi 5oi 7n2 7n2 8pm


Versus :gravity:
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Versus :time:
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Note:  Upgrades and deck build not final.

Versus :entropy:
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Versus :light:
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Modifying Member Roles thread next.  If I don't have the time to update everything else tomorrow morning I'll do it immediately after.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 08:28:49 am by willng3 »
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Offline Helston

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Re: Round 1 Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39239.msg490074#msg490074
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2012, 02:52:06 pm »
8 Minutes before deadline deck check:

"will
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Helston
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UTL
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"      
      
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 03:06:07 pm by Helston »
[15:02:07] Jocko [»] Helston: You killed a bunch of bunnies with nuclear weapons

Offline Helston

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Re: Round 1 Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39239.msg491209#msg491209
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2012, 10:31:48 am »
Support team actions:

I reckon we set both to defense. We've already seen that teams think we're an easy target with the number of salvagers sent our war during Round 1, so we're probably number two on the to-attack list after Time. We'll want to give our defenders every advantage they can get.

As for making a mod within the secret section, I would nominate both myself and drolly, as we've both been very active. I'm sure either of us could help out easily enough.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 10:34:08 am by Helston »
[15:02:07] Jocko [»] Helston: You killed a bunch of bunnies with nuclear weapons

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Re: Round 1 Discussion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39239.msg491287#msg491287
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2012, 02:42:58 pm »
Support team actions:

I reckon we set both to defense. We've already seen that teams think we're an easy target with the number of salvagers sent our war during Round 1, so we're probably number two on the to-attack list after Time. We'll want to give our defenders every advantage they can get.
I agree with this.  Going even further:

Scenario 1:  We set both players to attack other Elements.
If we attack Time then there's a good chance of having to attack a defending player.  Given the cards remaining if we choose to attack (cards not used by the Team during the previous Round), we'd be at a considerable disadvantage. 

Attacking other teams also warrants the exact same risk because if more than 3 players are attacking Time then all other attackers will be set to defend as a default.  The only advantage to this over attacking Time is that these teams will have weaker decks if they were switched to defending after attacking.  However, I'm expecting a lot of teams to defend during the first round.

Given these facts, I also believe defending with one player and attacking with the other seems silly.

Scenario 2:  We set both players to defend
We pretty much keep all of the Relics we're already holding onto.  I seriously expect hardly any teams to attack at all given nearly every useful card to the other Elements was used during Round 1, thus their deck is basically crap.  Furthermore, we can give the defenders a nice strong deck like PUgons and not have to worry about the annoying cards such as Wings, Discord, or EQ from their respective Elements.
Quote
As for making a mod within the secret section, I would nominate both myself and drolly, as we've both been very active. I'm sure either of us could help out easily enough.
Okay I had been planning this as well so I'll likely go ahead and do this.  If drolly doesn't mind the additional editing ability then I'll send a request to the WMs immediately.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 02:46:15 pm by willng3 »
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