Why this game is going to end up inaccessable to new people.

[Onetwo]

While reading over the forum and trying to find a good deck that doesn't require spending fighting level 3 computers for a few dozen hours with the same deck over and over to a degree of grinding not even the Koreans demand of players of their games, it seems that pre-January there were several viable newbie-decks people could use to fight the False Gods and get good cards after only a few hours of playing Elements.

After the changes, there doesn't seem to be any reliable method for getting gold to upgrade your cards beyond taking a Darkness or Time-Earth deck and mindlessly fighting the level 3's day after day after day. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, if it weren't for the fact that there apparently wasn't a reset after the game was rebalanced with regards to certain cards and False-God decks, meaning everyone who played before these changes are able to keep their amassed sums of gold and rare cards from cheap deck designs and exploiting AI flaws. If you're unlucky enough to fight them in PVP, which seems to be half the time, you're going to lose as they unleash their decks of fully upgraded cards. If by some miracle you manage to beat them, the game won't even give you a chance to win any of their upgraded cards.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, the game doesn't appeal to a casual gamer, when before apparently it used to, and the people who were present from before reap these benefits while newer players must grind out small gold games forever before they can get a single decent card. And since False-Gods are apparently being constantly upgraded in terms of AI against people with top-tier decks, this barrier against new people is only going to get worse and worse.

In short, if you have to perform the same exact task 25 times in a game and still aren't anywhere near being able to improve, the game is doing something wrong.

My suggestions to prevent this newbie-veteran gap:

- Remove the fee for changing elements. Why stifle experimentation? It's not as if changing elements gives any great benefit, this is just a goldsink in a game that is already stingy with gold.
- Remove the fee for challenging AI 1-3. For people trying to get a handle on the game, the penalty for failure being the time they invested in that match is penalty enough. After trying out a few bad decks against AI 2-3 and having to grind gold off of AI1 so I could try again was pathetic.
- An easier, actually fun method to obtain gold beyond having to grind out AI3 with the same exact rush deck. This could easily enough be served by adding additional 500 gold reward quests, promoting experimenting with other elements. and decks "Win a battle against AI3 by only dealing damage by use of poison", "Win a battle against AI3 with every monster slot on your side of the field full", "Win a battle against AI3 after killing 5 enemy monsters", "By making them run out of cards", "Without playing any Pillars/Towers" or "With 500+ total quantum in reserve" are all fine examples.
- Players who are able to beat people with upgraded cards having the chance to win those upgraded cards. Why not, really?
- If not any of those, then something, anything better than AI3 grinding.

I expect this topic is going to be flamed by veterans who have grinded full decks off of false gods before January, so I'm probably not going to be responding to this topic. :p

[Silkenfist]

- Remove the fee for changing elements. Why stifle experimentation? It's not as if changing elements gives any great benefit, this is just a goldsink in a game that is already stingy with gold.

I want to have some (minor) restrictions on element change. In tournaments, you can benefit somewhat from changing Elements and I want it to have some costs there. What about making it free, but allowing such a change only a few times per day?

- Remove the fee for challenging AI 1-3. For people trying to get a handle on the game, the penalty for failure being the time they invested in that match is penalty enough. After trying out a few bad decks against AI 2-3 and having to grind gold off of AI1 so I could try again was pathetic.

Negative. The "gambling" part about Elements is one of the key aspects of the game. And it really is NOT hard to grind AI2 at least. Use the information in the wiki and you can grind AI3 within 5 minutes from registering. If you start experimenting before having found a "fallback" deck, then it is sloppy strategy.

- An easier, actually fun method to obtain gold beyond having to grind out AI3 with the same exact rush deck. This could easily enough be served by adding additional 500 gold reward quests, promoting experimenting with other elements. and decks "Win a battle against AI3 by only dealing damage by use of poison", "Win a battle against AI3 with every monster slot on your side of the field full", "Win a battle against AI3 after killing 5 enemy monsters", "By making them run out of cards", "Without playing any Pillars/Towers" or "With 500+ total quantum in reserve" are all fine examples.

Seconded. Although you have to keep in mind that is very hard to program quests that look into the gameplay. Still, there might be some room for additional quests. There is one contest right now to create just that.

- Players who are able to beat people with upgraded cards having the chance to win those upgraded cards. Why not, really?

Because it is WAY too easy to grind the Top50. If you were able to win upgraded cards from them, the ramp from starting to infinite richness could be done within a week or so.

I expect this topic is going to be flamed by veterans who have grinded full decks off of false gods before January, so I'm probably not going to be responding to this topic. :p

Yeah right... if we don't agree then it is only because we aren't valid contenders in the topic. Running away from an argument before even listening to the other side is no solution.

[PuppyChow]

I want to have some (minor) restrictions on element change. In tournaments, you can benefit somewhat from changing Elements and I want it to have some costs there. What about making it free, but allowing such a change only a few times per day?

No. I want to be able to use every deck of mine whenever I want, not be restricting to only using a few a day.

Maybe 2 or so free changes per day would be fine and after that give an increased cost to change (like 125).

[Jumbalumba]

if you have to perform the same exact task 25 times in a game and still aren't anywhere near being able to improve, the game is doing something wrong.

This game isn't like many other flash games which are meant to be finished. As a result of that, it is meant to be grindy.

I agree with almost all of what Silkenfist has said and would like to add that if one can get upgraded cards from spins from wins against Top 50 players then there would be no point to False Gods or Half-bloods. Winning against Top 50 is not as hard as you seem to make it out to be. In fact, I would say it is possible to make a deck (fully unupgraded) that could beat Top 50 regularly within a few hours of starting the game.

[Scaredgirl]

Ah, it's another weekly "I cannot beat False Gods so I have to make a new forum account and write a post about how Elements will fail" -thread. These doomsday threads have been around since Elements first came into existence, yet Elements is still here and the player base keeps on growing every month.

Part of the fun in Elements is the difficulty. This is not your average flash game that anyone can finish in a couple of hours. You really have to work to get that upgraded deck which doesn't go well with instant gratification players who want their games to be easy.

I personally believe that if Elements was easier, most people would get bored and quit. Before the Sundial nerf, False Gods were way too easy because after playing for only a couple of hours, I could take an unupped deck and beat FG's with 50%+ success. That's not good when we are talking about PvE endgame.

To everyone who complains about False Gods being too difficult, the problem is not upgraded card, Sundials, veteran players, position of Mars, etc. The real problem is YOU.

You just lack the experience and skill to beat the FG's. It's as simple as that. I know this because I could go fight them with unupped deck right now and make a bunch of cash, and my game client is not different from yours. This doesn't of course mean I'm a better gamer than you, it only means that I have more experience in fighting FG's. Remember this rule by Sun Tzu and you will be successful against False Gods:

"Know your enemy and know yourself".

You have to know exactly what the enemy is capable of doing and what he will do in certain situations. Also you need to know what your own deck is capable of doing and when to play (and not play) a certain card.


Although I disagree with almost everything you say in your post I do partly agree in that changing marks should definitely not cost every time you do it because CCG's are about deck building and testing different setups. The "fix" to this problem is really easy -> make is so that you can buy marks just like you buy cards. When you buy a mark, you "unlock" it and can use it as much as you want for free. Unlocking could cost for example 500 or something.

[Purity_Riot]

New player here, been in the game just over a week, have 2 rares and 2 upgrades from only a bit of time a day, as do most of my friends who started playing within the last week.

We'd all just like to say, we disagree, Elements isn't going to die from any of those things

you're very, very wrong

good day

Also, would love some new quests for my deck to devour.

[jmizzle7]

If anything, the great wealth of knowledge and threads about specific decks and such should make it far easier to succeed in this game. When I joined, Elements was pretty much brand new, and I figured out the prevailing deck types by fighting top 50, and I used lots of trial and error to figure out what worked in each element with regard to grinding level 3. It took some getting used to but I eventually settled on mono-Darkness and rolled with that until I upgraded the whole deck and worked on upgrading a rainbow deck (at the time, farming false gods was quite unreliable for gaining money unless you had a fully upped rainbow or mono-Aether, because Sundial wasn't out yet). Once I upgraded about 10-15 cards for the rainbow deck I switched to false gods and never looked back. Sure, the false gods became way too easy once Sundial came out. But Elements is massively popular and will continue to be as long as there is sufficient challenge for all levels of play, from beginner to master. There will never be a massive account reset to make things "fair", because frankly, there are too many veteran players (myself included) that will quit if it ever happened. This isn't a flame on your thoughts, it's just the truth.

[Clathius]

There is a difference between difficulty and grinding.   This game is not that difficult.   Some reading on the forums and you can beat FG.  If your goal is to beat a FG, that is easily achievable.

On the other hand, if your goal is to complete a single upgraded deck you will spending an unholy number of hours grinding AI3 or even FG.   I've been playing a week and already I can tell you I am soooooo sick of farming Miracle.

I am not even sure this is a card game.   I think it is a grinding game.    I would wager a significant amount that most players spend more time grinding to build a particular deck than actually using that deck once built.   Once they build a deck, they either need to tweak it (more grinding) and want to build a completely different deck (more grinding).

[PirateKingAtomsk]

After the changes, there doesn't seem to be any reliable method for getting gold to upgrade your cards beyond taking a Darkness or Time-Earth deck and mindlessly fighting the level 3's day after day after day.

Not really, Yes I did use a shrieker swarm deck to grind the money for a more powerful rainbow deck.  But once I got the cash I was able to get the deck I wanted (Thank you Scaredgirl and your unupgraded 54 card deck) I can now regularly beat Half-Breeds and the occasional False God, in fact I was able to achieve mastery on the one FG I defeated and often on the Half-Breeds,  and because of the deck I am running I am nearly never repeat a battle.  Sure it is annoying when you draw no pillars or nothing but pillars, but that is part of any card game.

It took me less then a day to get the money together for Scaredgirl's deck and I was even able to upgrade a card as well.

[Essence]

Response here. (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,3155.0.html)

[Thakog]

The grinding is....  ok.  I realize people need something to do when they become "UBER" as essence puts it.  Still it worries me when people talk about "grinding" and "PvE" endgame.  What's next, 25 player raid decks where you challenge REAL gods?

[MXXE]

I dont think this game is going to die from any of those things
But I also think that this is NOT an "Ah, it's another weekly "I cannot beat False Gods so I have to make a new forum account and write a post about how Elements will fail"" topic. There were many constructive thoughts in it.

I'm for the free elemental mark change. It would be even good when it was only possible once a day. I personally would find "2 times a day and 100 coins for every additional time" the best.

I'm definitely for more quests. They can be uber hard questst as well but also some fun-quests (maybe somethink like archievements or badges? then you could go for the completely senseless like "manage to die from a level 0. reward: 1 coin") That would be fun.

Well... winning upgraded cards from other players... The middle way would be to be able to win upgraded cards from PVP but NOT from top50.

I think the fee to challenge AI should stay as it is.

well, gold... Its hard to get in great amounts. The grinding takes long. I have a deck now that I in fact only use in pvp. I don't really play for the coins I play for the fun. It's a game isn't it? And real people are more fun. And still i make gold faster in pvp than against the AI (or maybe I just had luck with the card spins). Still it takes very long to make gold. In my opinion it just goes way too long to build a new deck to experiment without selling the old one. Even if you try it in the trainer (www.elementsthegame.com/trainer.html) first and calculate the amount of coins needed it just COSTS! A way around this would be that the buying price for cards is the same as the selling price but well... that would have the same problem as the free mark-change as discussed above.

Now for grinding gods.
"You just lack the experience and skill to beat the FG's. It's as simple as that. I know this because I could go fight them with unupped deck right now and make a bunch of cash, and my game client is not different from yours."
Uummm...
Ok I can get every experience i want from the wiki, thats right. I can go and look up several god-killer decks. Some of them even unupgraded. And then i could go make a bunch of cash. But first I need cash to build this deck! Thats problem one. Problem two is when you want to stay true to your playing-style. I mean... there are FG-killer-decks sure. And there are good pvp decks. And maybe there are decks that can do both. But what is if I want to go with my fire+little earch deck that perfectly works in pvp and fight gods? I lose. As i said already in this post I play for fun. Fun would be for me to find a deck MYself that beats gods. But for that I lack the money. I could take one of the given god-killer-decks. The grinding to get one of the given ones would not be such a great pain. But then i just let the wiki tell me what I have to do. Where is my OWN playstyle and why do I not use my OWN brain in a GAME? Obviously I can just say that i will take a anti-god-deck and farm cash until I have 10'000 and then I sell it and go trying to make an own god-killer-deck. But still... it feels a bit like letting a game control you.
As a note: although I have written those points now I probably WILL get a preset FG-killer-deck, I just find both sides are equally important and have the right to express their meaning.

Next note: the same applies for all the other paragraphes. If NONE of this points will be changed, that still won't stop me from playing elements. The game won't die that fast, that's for sure.