NPC's to submit for 1.4 - what are criteria for a good submission?

[Marsu]

Shantu, you simply misunderstood my definition of good design. A weak deck can be well designed, as I mentioned in the OP. Your Elder example is a well designed deck.

[yee]

You have some good points there. +rep

Would you consider this bad or good?

Spoiler for Hidden:

Glass Cannon
Health: 15
Mark x3
Draw power x2
Description: It's defence is lacking, but the offence is top class.

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5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f0 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f2 5f2 5f2 5f2 5f2 5f2 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5fu 5fu 5fu 5fu 5fu 5fu 8po

By the way, how many of you have tried to kill 900 Hp Light God, who only has healing cards and no offence. When I finnaly beat it, I was doing 400+ damage each turn.

[Keeps]

Is the time devil supposed to have no quanta besides the mark?

Yes, but notice I'm giving it a 4x mark, though, I would need to test these decks but the testing tools aren't built out enough.  I'm trying to convey the concept of a sets themed of lower level creatures and the idea of making lower level creatures but use of the higher power mechanics, like a 5x mark, or a 3x draw.

Think of it like this.  You could have something like a deck that's all low cast creatures, 4x the rainbow mark and a 3x times draw, and no pillars and it'll work on some levels, like this:
Let's call it minibow

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52i 52i 52i 52i 52i 52i 55q 55q 55q 55q 55q 55q 58p 58p 58p 58p 58p 58p 5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5bu 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5f1 5i5 5i5 5i5 5i5 5i5 5i5 5od 5od 5od 5od 5od 5od 5rh 5rh 5rh 5rh 5rh 5rh 626 626 626 626 626 626 6tu 6tu 6tu

 It's a deck that under the normal rules isn't feasible, but with a 4x rainbow mark and a 3x times draw, means a field flooding with creatures, a constant wave of little creatures. 

I'm just trying to get people to think out of the box and think of sets of synergies, this is a map right, so areas might have themes representing those areas.  Don't just think I can make a great deck by the old rules.

[Marsu]

I feel that I need to make this post now that I've seen a lot of submitted decks: To be honest, the majority of the decks would, if ever incorporated into the game, lessen it's quality compared to the status quo. That may sound harsh, but there's still time to submit great decks.

The biggest problem by far is that most decks feel like ARENA decks, not like AI decks. Where is the difference? Have a look at this current AI3 deck.

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4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vd 4vd 4ve 4vk 4vk 4vk 4vo 4vp 4vq 4vq 4vq 50u 50u 50u 50u 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52g 52h 52j 52j 52k 52k 52k 52n 52n 52p 52p 52p 52q 52r 52v 52v 52v 8pk

...or this.

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4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vd 4vd 4vd 4vf 4vl 4vm 4vm 4vm 4vm 4vo 4vo 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bt 5bt 5bu 5bu 5bv 5bv 5c0 5c0 5c2 5c4 5c5 5c6 5c7 8pn

Now let's have a look at a deck close to what most people submit.

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5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 5ru 5ru 5ru 5ru 5ru 5ru 5v1 5v1 5v1 5v1 5v1 5v1 8ps

Do you see the difference? The AI deck has MANY DIFFERENT cards. It is FUN to play against, because everytime you do, it works DIFFERENTLY. This is one major reason (Yes yes, not the only one. You can also build decks with few different cards that are fun and creative, but that's not the majority.) of why AI decks are fun to play against, and why most submissions so far are BAD. Sorry.

So... please. Take that to heart and build some kickass creative decks instead of arena decks. We are shaping the next years of Elements here probably, so give it your best!

P.S.: It is not forbidden to build duos without a strong synergy.

[Fippe94]

I may be biased since I'm talking about my decks, but my submitted decks (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,50573.msg1090176.html#msg1090176) do not have a lot of different cards, but I still consider them good NPC decks, because I have used some of the unique charasterictics (Low HP, 5x Mark, <30 cards) of NPCs that simply is not possible anywhere else. So even if they are not very varied (most games against them look the same) it's still a unique battle compared to what you usually see elswewhere in the game.

EDIT: I'm not arguing with you Marsu, just clarifying and showing that decks can still be interesting without having lots of different cards.

[Marsu]

I may be biased since I'm talking about my decks, but my submitted decks (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,50573.msg1090176.html#msg1090176) do not have a lot of different cards, but I still consider them good NPC decks, because I have used some of the unique charasterictics (Low HP, 5x Mark, <30 cards) of NPCs that simply is not possible anywhere else. So even if they are not very varied (most games against them look the same) it's still a unique battle compared to what you usually see elswewhere in the game.

EDIT: I'm not arguing with you Marsu, just clarifying and showing that decks can still be interesting without having lots of different cards.

This is one major reason (Yes yes, not the only one. You can also build decks with few different cards that are fun and creative, but that's not the majority.) of why AI decks are fun to play against, and why most submissions so far are BAD. Sorry.

Yes, as I said in that post already *cough*, you are totally right, of course there are really good submissions that involve few different cards, and you want a mixture of deck types anyway. The point is: Having a greater amount of different cards in your deck is the easiest way to make your deck fun to play against. There are others, and if you're skilled enough, use them instead. But if one is not... see above.

[treebeard xiii]

If i'm correct in my understanding you are saying my lord of the ruins deck is a decent npc deck

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6tt 6u1 6u1 6u1 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u3 6u5 6ug 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 6ve 74a 74i 7jv 7k6 7n2 7n2 7n2 7t4 7t4 7t4 7t4 7t4 7t4 7t4 7t4 7t4 7t4 7t4 7t9 7t9 7t9 7ta 7ta 7ta 7tb 7tb 7td 7td 7td 7te 7tf 7tf 7tf 7th 7to 80h 816 8pt

Pure evil when you play it with triple deck 5x mark but as it uses a lot of different cards you would define it as a 'good' deck

[Fippe94]

I know you said that Marsu, that's why I added the edit. I didn't mean to clarify for you, but for other that read your post. My post was meant to complement yours by giving example on how to make an interesting deck without different cards.

[Marsu]

@Fippe: Yes, yes, yes, I understood, no hard feelings at all (why anyway? :p). Thanks for your clarification.

@treebeard: Again, a deck that uses many different cards is not automatically a good deck and a good deck does not automatically use many different cards. (Even though the spam of uninspired arena decks definetly create a correlation for the letter) - that being said, I really like your deck from the first look of it.

[Raptor6789]

Don't forget, the 30 card minimum requirement does not apply to NPC's. I think it would be interesting to introduce smaller deck sizes; though they are harder for new players to emulate, they add more variety to battling. Some can even be used educationally - a new player may see a bare-bones strategy and be forced to add some fluff to bring it up to the optimal card count.

[Kamietsu]

It seems like everyone is going back and forth over the same exact issue while everyone is on a single side. Good or bad design doesn't matter so long as the deck is viable, beatable at its level, and fun to play. Many of the lower AI decks are not good decks in the sense they are optimally made, even if that optimizing would still keep them just as beatable. They are made to work and to provide a bit of a challenge for new players while showing them the basics of the game. And as the new player gets stronger, gets more cards and builds a better deck, when they go back and challenge those lower level decks again they can more easily see what to do and what not to do. It is almost unheard of to make a very good deck while using more than 3 different types of pillars. Even 3 is pushing the limits most cases. So when a newb plays those low level decks they can see how much easier they are beating them and why they are beating them so easily. Then when they step up to the next level it's the same thing. A bunch of decks that are a good challenge and seem well made at first until the player gets stronger, gets a better deck, and they start seeing where this next level of AI decks don't work as well. This repeats itself, letting the player take in strengths and weaknesses of various decks and types of deck building.

Besides I completely doubt only player made decks will be in the new update. Zanz will probably make a bunch of decks that he will add to it at various levels to address my above points and add a variety to it so it's not all powerful carbon copy decks of commonly used ones.