Unavoidable Disadvantage Problem

[Lunatic]

I'm not an experienced player by any means, but I see a staggering flaw in implementing new cards into the game. Simply because false gods have all these advantages against players (while players only benefit from having a conscious mind), every new card that is added into the game will be more detrimental than helpful to the us. I realize we can make use of new strategies with new cards, but false gods will be able to abuse any new strategy created unless it is extremely situational or is based on a rainbow deck, in which case a very advanced AI for Rainbow (the false god) becomes a nightmare. In addition to this, new false gods can be created to take advantage of a particular strategy, once again making things more difficult for us. I know challenge is part of the game, but giving players more options should not come with such a drawback. If this trend continues, games could potentially be more dependent on luck rather than deck-building and playing skill.

Do you see any solutions to this save giving us the option to choose which false god to fight?

[Kamietsu]

If we got to choose which FG to fight, no one would ever pick harder FGs. People would stick to Miracle and Ferox, regardless of any new cards that came out. I know I would because I still have some trouble with the harder ones.

And I completely disagree with what you say about new cards. The FGs decks are not just randomly generated. They have a strict deck. Of course this changes with new cards introduced occasionally, i think, but with the new cards we have now, I don't see very many FGs even having them yet. Or at least not playing them. And the ones who I have seen play them against me, didn't really help the FG out too terribly much.

I propose that you can choose the FG you want to duel but at the cost of not being able to spin the slots afterwards. The only way you could spin slots on the FGs is to use the random FG button, instead of picking which one you wanted to face.

[Silkenfist]

Simply because false gods have all these advantages against players (while players only benefit from having a conscious mind), every new card that is added into the game will be more detrimental than helpful to the us.

Wrong. The more cards that are added, the more complex the game will become. With greater complexity the competence of the player becomes more and more important and our chance against the Gods will increase.

Take at one end, a game that consists of Life Pillars and Horned Frogs only. There would not be any room to misplay or outmaneuver an opponent. Players would not have an advantage at all.
At the other end, take chess. Almost everyone in the world can play better chess than they would be able to write an AI to play against them. Why? Because with increasing complexity it becomes harder (to the point of impossible) to write a reasonable algorithm. The more possibilities there are, the greater the advantage of the human mind.

To take it further, look at Go. So far, there is no AI even remotely being capable of contending against the strongest humans.

What we need are more cards, not some gimmicks that would effectively kill half of the gods.

[Lunatic]

To Kamietsu:

I think you misunderstood my last sentence. I said: "Do you see any solutions to this save giving us the option to choose which false god to fight?" (Here I mean: What other solution is possible except for giving us this option?).

To Silkenfist:

I mentioned that our mind gives us an advantage in this situation, but it is the only advantage. Despite the number of cards we are presented with, the game allows us a 30-60 card deck, which isn't too limiting considering too few cards limit  strategy and comebacks, while too many cards will cause bad draws. However, I think you're ignoring the fact that although more cards give us the advantage while planning a long-term strategy, we are limited to the cards we will draw before the god can kill us (unlike chess, in which all of your options are presented from the beginning), but particularly by the fact that we have to plan for every false god.

To keep from designing too complex an AI for one god, new false gods are created, and we now have to plan for each one. The problem does not stem from the increased number of strategies, in which case, we are able beat every god with ease, but rather the way they are handled in the game. I am proposing finding a better way of dealing with the introduction of new cards to keep players and false gods at a good balance, not stopping the production of new cards entirely. Twenty uncomplicated AI systems given the advantages false gods are find it easier to defeat one very complex, yet very limited mind that must deal with all of them at random. 

Edit:
To PuppyChow's message below:

I support your idea, but this thread deals more with the how the AI and game changes according to the new cards that are released, and veering away from creating new gods every time a major change occurs. Nonetheless, your solution is very good to simplify programming needs while letting us have some degree of choice.

[PuppyChow]

*Points to old topic I made here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,1546.0.html)*

If that's the point you were trying to get across, I agree .

[Silkenfist]

I mentioned that our mind gives us an advantage in this situation, but it is the only advantage.

Does that include the advantage of knowing the exact contents of our opponent's deck and every one of its "thoughts"? That's a pretty good advantage IMO

Despite the number of cards we are presented with, the game allows us a 30-60 card deck, which isn't too limiting considering too few cards limit  strategy and comebacks, while too many cards will cause bad draws. However, I think you're ignoring the fact that although more cards give us the advantage while planning a long-term strategy, we are limited to the cards we will draw before the god can kill us (unlike chess, in which all of your options are presented from the beginning),

Sorry, if I fail to grasp this but - what is your point? That we only have access to the limited of cards that we included in our deck AND drew in the actual game before it finished? That would be obviously true but true for both sides and another factor of complexity that we could use against the AI.

but particularly by the fact that we have to plan for every false god. To keep from designing too complex an AI for one god, new false gods are created, and we now have to plan for each one.

Not really. Of course it is impossible to create a deck that does well against each of the 18 Gods. That's what you call a metagame - there is no optimal choice, at some point any improvement you make against one God will come at a cost of weakening your matchup against the others. Everything else would be pretty dull.

The problem does not stem from the increased number of strategies, in which case, we are able beat every god with ease,

Once again I have to ask you what exactly you mean with this... wouldn't a greater variety of strategies among the Gods make it harder for us to beat each of them?

but rather the way they are handled in the game. I am proposing finding a better way of dealing with the introduction of new cards to keep players and false gods at a good balance, not stopping the production of new cards entirely.

So now we come to your basic point (as far as I can read it): That the new cards are somehow making games against the AI harder. I just fail to see any validation for your opinion. Take the latest additions to the game - the Nymphs, Shards and Alchemy cards. The AI has no access to the Shards and is horrible at handling the Nymphs and Alchemy cards correctly (just for laughs, grind AI5 for a while to see how it tries to use Liquid Shadow). Tell me a concrete example, where the addition of new cards was detrimental to the chances of the humans.

Twenty uncomplicated AI systems given the advantages false gods are find it easier to defeat one very complex, yet very limited mind that must deal with all of them at random.

Once again - what is your definition of defeat? The point of the False Gods is that they are extremely hard, even for players who have achieved everything in the game, already. Currently, with a good deck you can get about 40-60% of the games against the AI, which sounds like a neigh-perfect ratio for me to make the game interesting. What would you want to change about it?

[Lunatic]

Quote from: Lunatic on Today at 01:52:33 AM

    I mentioned that our mind gives us an advantage in this situation, but it is the only advantage.



Does that include the advantage of knowing the exact contents of our opponent's deck and every one of its "thoughts"? That's a pretty good advantage IMO

The advantage I speak of here applies to the benefit false gods receive with the presence of each card, not the fact that we have a functioning brain in general. The ability to know the AI's "thoughts" is also less advantageous than you think. Of course we can use precognition to see its hand and look at the script to see what move it will make, but I think you will find it doesn't matter when you don't have the cards to execute a counter-strategy. I can think of what I need to do in a certain situation, but it's quite different from actually being able to do it (and against every god, almost every turn, for that matter). Having knowledge without being able to apply it really doesn't matter when playing.

To your second point:

Quote

    Despite the number of cards we are presented with, the game allows us a 30-60 card deck, which isn't too limiting considering too few cards limit  strategy and comebacks, while too many cards will cause bad draws. However, I think you're ignoring the fact that although more cards give us the advantage while planning a long-term strategy, we are limited to the cards we will draw before the god can kill us (unlike chess, in which all of your options are presented from the beginning),



Sorry, if I fail to grasp this but - what is your point? That we only have access to the limited of cards that we included in our deck AND drew in the actual game before it finished? That would be obviously true but true for both sides and another factor of complexity that we could use against the AI.

I am simply saying that no matter how complex you are able to make your strategy, in the end, you are limited to what you possess in your hand and in the near-future. Although it may reveal the AI's weakness, complexity also gives rise to error. This is not true for both sides, because the AI only needs a few key cards to execute their strategy, while you need to enough quanta and the cards to pull off an ideal, complex strategy. They can repeat their 8-12 card strategy many times throughout their 100+ card cycle, whereas you are restrained by your intricate approach despite your lack of cards.

at some point any improvement you make against one God will come at a cost of weakening your matchup against the others.

and

Once again I have to ask you what exactly you mean with this... wouldn't a greater variety of strategies among the Gods make it harder for us to beat each of them?

I did not argue that we should be able to specialize our deck without consequence. The fact that each false god employs a unique strategy makes is much more difficult than tweaking our deck for small changes to existing gods. Entirely unique decks are more difficult to defend against when compared to AI improvements and a change of strategy in existing ones, which also refers to this question (I'm not going to re-quote myself):

Once again I have to ask you what exactly you mean with this... wouldn't a greater variety of strategies among the Gods make it harder for us to beat each of them?

So now we come to your basic point (as far as I can read it): That the new cards are somehow making games against the AI harder. I just fail to see any validation for your opinion. Take the latest additions to the game - the Nymphs, Shards and Alchemy cards. The AI has no access to the Shards and is horrible at handling the Nymphs and Alchemy cards correctly (just for laughs, grind AI5 for a while to see how it tries to use Liquid Shadow). Tell me a concrete example, where the addition of new cards was detrimental to the chances of the humans.

You do not understand my point throughout the post. I was saying that introducing new cards into the game is creating changes that make the game unbalanced. Instead of improving the AI system, new gods are being added in the game. The cards are not making the game harder or unbalanced; having to deal with 10 new false gods is. Win rates are not lower because of each god being more difficult, but rather the fact that there are so many new ones to deal with that no one deck can handle them all. You laugh now at the AI's impotence, but how would a rainbow deck-crushing amber nymph based false god sound? The fact the AI5s fail is that they have too wide a strategy. With the current trend, a new god for every element's nymph would be more likely than improving the AIs for handling them.

As with your last point, defeat simply means losing to the false gods. They can defeat us more easily with their simplistic strategy than we can them because of the range we are forced to have. The false gods are not "hard," and as you mentioned earlier, you know their entire deck and strategy. So why is it you can only win 50% of the time with a perfect strategy? It is because luck plays too large a factor when so many false gods are present, and this is what must be prevented.

[Essence]

Instead of improving the AI system

This is out-and-out wrong.  The AI system has been significantly improved, and assuming that ChrisKang hasn't died, it's going to continue being improved whenever he finally returns to Elements.

[Lunatic]

I did not mean that in such a harsh tone, Essence. However, I think in the time it must have taken to design so many new gods, granted it has the same basic framework, an improved level of AI could have offered much more. Although it has been improved considerably, and with a doubt, considerable effort from Zanz, I don't see the path of adding new gods for a challenge as ideal.

[Glitch]

Is anyone else getting tired of these "I can't beat the false gods waa waa" threads?

Okay.  You can't beat them.  Clearly, the solution isn't getting better, it's making them worse.  And let's be honest, maybe you'll never beat the gods.  I still can't.  But if you're playing solely to beat the gods, then perhaps you should move your eyes to the PVP button, and play your friends instead.

[Lunatic]

At the risk of sounding rude, I will speak my mind. Firstly, Gl1tch, nowhere in any of my posts did I say that the false gods are too hard for me. If that is the conclusion you draw from my posts, despite my efforts to clearly state that this is not the intention of my thread, then I cannot help you further. I have also not whined or anything of the sort. Instead of giving a legitimate answer, almost every reply made in this thread has picked on straw men. If i wanted easier false gods, I would have clearly said it. You cannot dismiss these issues by saying I am flat out wrong and that the game has been improved with every change.

[Essence]

Well, then, here's a non-straw-man complete disassembly of your argument:

Premise: False Gods decks are almost completely static.  (Inductive backup: in the entire time I've been playing, a few of the FGs have been altered...once.  That's a fairly decent sample size relative to the amount of time that False Gods have existed.)
Premise: Static decks provide static challenges.
Premise: New cards provide new ways of tackling challenges, some of which will be more efficient than old ways.
Premise: Players can and will use the most efficient manner of tackling a challenge that they have available to them.
Premise: Improving efficiency against a static challenge is more beneficial to the challenger than to the challenge.

Step 1: False Gods provide static challenges.
Step 2: New cards make tackling some challenges more efficient.
Step 3: New cards make tackling some static challenges more efficient.

Conclusion: New cards are more beneficial to the challenger (i.e. player) than they are to the challenge (i.e. the False God.)