Isn't the new shards double-forced in element?

[choongmyoung]

It COSTS one elements AND gives advantage to certain element. Kinda too far from original concept I think.
I think of some changes..

Add up to 3 random (upgraded) cards to your hand.
Inflict 48(40) damage to yourself and remove all your quanta. Swap damage with healing. Lasts 2 turns.
Accretion: Destroy a permanent and gain +0|+15. Dies if HP>45.
no change
Heal yourself up to 5 HP at the end of every turn.
Your opponent draws 2 cards. Draw equal amount of cards.
no change
Add 20 HP's to your maximum health.
Airborne creatures gain a 25% chance to deal +50% damage, ignore shields.
well..donno..
Reduce your opponent's max health by 3 HP per turn.
no change

[willng3]

Yeah it seems sort of odd to me to have an element loyalty bonus when a lot of the latest changes pretty much demand that you have the shard's quanta source in your deck already.  I suppose you could make the argument that this also prevents some of the Shards from being used with Supernova, Quantum Towers, etc. without using the element it belongs to first but by that same logic shouldn't low cost creatures, spells, and permanents have the same features as well?

[dragonsdemesne]

You do have an interesting point, in that you are now being rewarded for using an elemental shard in its own element, which is rather strange.  When you need quanta of the same element that gives you the bonus for using said shard, you're going to be getting that bonus nearly every time the card is used.  We'll see how Zanz handles it all; we're only in the very preliminary stages of things, and the last major update with the new shards was worked on over a process of a few months, and I know he won't rush into anything.

Maybe an interesting take on it would be to have the shards benefit from being paired with a different element other than themselves?  That might cause a whole host of other problems, like forced duos, but it's an interesting idea; maybe it'll spark something in someone else's brain :p

[Captain Scibra]

Moar power to the monos!

[choongmyoung]

Yeah it seems sort of odd to me to have an element loyalty bonus when a lot of the latest changes pretty much demand that you have the shard's quanta source in your deck already.  I suppose you could make the argument that this also prevents some of the Shards from being used with Supernova, Quantum Towers, etc. without using the element it belongs to first but by that same logic shouldn't low cost creatures, spells, and permanents have the same features as well?

Well, mostly, using from single Nova|SN is not important.
It now requires proper element to use the shards. It means you should have that elements regarding it was given by Nova or Pillar. it Is already a elemental love(or hate), which is the shard age's concept.
Shards have brought more elemental benefit|penalty over them such as "+8 max HP if your mark is ".

You do have an interesting point, in that you are now being rewarded for using an elemental shard in its own element, which is rather strange.  When you need quanta of the same element that gives you the bonus for using said shard, you're going to be getting that bonus nearly every time the card is used.  We'll see how Zanz handles it all; we're only in the very preliminary stages of things, and the last major update with the new shards was worked on over a process of a few months, and I know he won't rush into anything.

Maybe an interesting take on it would be to have the shards benefit from being paired with a different element other than themselves?  That might cause a whole host of other problems, like forced duos, but it's an interesting idea; maybe it'll spark something in someone else's brain :p

You're right. I just threw my ideas here, let's have time and watch EtG progressing.

[Annele]

Heh.

[choongmyoung]

^ Some of your opinions are different, some are same..
As it seems you thought much deeper that me, I'd better quote your reply here so that everyone can see.
Time will say the answer.

• Shard of Divinity - I'd get rid of the elemental favouring, and have it add 24 max hp no matter what. 3 is worth slightly more than 3 , so the effect should be worth slightly more. [Add 24 HPs to your maximum health.]
  

• Shard of Gratitude - I think that as now it is slightly more restricted than it was with quanta, it'll be safe to heal 5hp each turn again, though perhaps by making the unupgraded cost 4 , and the upgraded cost 3 , to avoid spamming in SuperNova decks. [Heal yourself for up to 5hp a turn.]
  

• Shard of Readiness - As this already destroys a famous deck, I wont get any grief for suggesting a change to this. I personally don't see how being 'Ready' allows the use of an ability twice, so I think the target creature should just be able use their ability once (again) on that turn, removing summoning sickness and ability sickness. I am not sure what the cost should be, but I think decreasing it to 4 was a good start. [The target creature's skill cost is now 0. The creature is ready to use its skill again.]
  

• Shard of Sacrifice - This is a tricky one. Perhaps instead of the quanta sacrifice, there is a creature sacrifice, as the card already costs quanta? However, this is one I am less certain about, and am sure my fellow Elementals can think of a better way to balance its -broken- nature. Also, the way it is worded sounds as if SoSac's health sacrifice will be healed if you already have the Sacrifice state on you, so that needs to be reworded, I think. [Sacrifice 48 health and the target creature to swap damage and healing for 2 turns.]
  

• Shard of Void - I don't think there's much of a change to this one. People rarely used it without a mark (I was one of those rare exceptions ) so I believe with a cost, 3 max hp will be fine. [Reduce your opponent's max health by 3 HP each turn.]
  

• Shard of Patience - +5/+5? Really? Well, nobody can say that SoP came out worse off after the Shard changes. I honestly have no idea how to change this, except maybe by making the buff happen AFTER creatures like BL die. People in chat say it's balanced though, as it isn't rainbow costing, so I guess it can be left as is. (Maybe with a cost increase of 1) It is the only shard I don't think needs its Elemental favouring removed, because it is only discriminating against immortal creatures, burrowed creatures, and malignant cell, which isn't much. I DO think that SoP's ability (Patience) is a really silly name, though 'impatience' sounds weird. [Your creatures do not attack and gain +2/+2. Water creatures in a flooded area gain +5/+5]
  

• Shard of Serendipity - Not too much has to be done to this, I think, apart from removing the guaranteed Entropy card. (People already need slightly more Entropy production because of the cost.) Maybe a -1 to the cost as well, because 3 is slightly higher than 3 . [Add up to 3 random cards in your hand.]
  

• Shard of Focus - Well, at least now it wont be splashed into every single deck. I don't personally like it as a card at all, and there are other Elements that need PC more desperately, and doesn't need more access to BH, but it is balanced. (Or at least more balanced than it was before.) This is another card where the Elemental favouring isn't too obvious, so I don't think that should be changed. Basically, unless you want to change it completely, I'd keep the wording the same, and maybe alter costs. (4 seems okay atm.) Maybe lower the hp gain to 10, and the max before BH to 31 though. [Accretion: Destroy target permanent and gain +0/+10. Turn into a Black Hole if HP > 30.]
  

• Shard of Bravery - Slightly OP imo, and as I am basically getting rid of all Elemental favouring, I'd just get rid of it for SoBe. [Your opponent draws up to 2 cards. Draw an equal number of cards.]
  

• Shard of Integrity - The worst designed shard imo. Personally, I think Earth should get a normal Shard (there is a nice idea in the Other Crucible, but you probably want to think one up yourself) and SoI either scrapped or made into the shard. If it is made into the rainbow shard, I suggest that Shard Golem, when RT'd, turns into a SoI again in your deck, and its ability costs random quanta.
  

• Shard of Wisdom - I still think that it should be able to buff non-immortal creatures, but still buff immortal creatures more. [The target creature (can be immortal) now deals spell damage. If it is immortal, it gains +3/+0 as well.]
  

• Shard of Freedom - This is really sad. SoFr decks were some of the most fun decks. I see the reasoning for it though, and the only change I'd make is to get rid of the favouring, as it is most likely going to be used in Air decks anyways. [Airbourne creatures gain a 25% to deal +50% damage, ignore shields and evade targeting.]
  

[pervepic]

They are double-forced indeed and I have no idea why that is so good. To force to play monos? Probably no, because monos are relatively boring and they exhaust themselves quickly. Maybe there was an intention just to bring Shards into the game, because they were just habitually ignored by the most important pvp events, because they were "others" and also rare "others". The other thing was their imbalanceness, then the intention could be just to disallow to spam overpowered shards with rainbows, but the problem is not in rainbows but in each shard separately.

  - 4 damage with 2 quanta (in the new version) is  overpowered copared with the blessing, but it is much more overpowered when the possible ways to counter them are very narrow. When SoF is nerfed by that and that new card comes out which allows to restore Dim Shield, aether will be the strongest element. Because I usually feel so helpless against that shard and I can't do much against those, for me it is subjectively the worst card in the game.

  - because of the limited ways of the permanent control in the game, even those are overpowered

  - minus 3 unrecoverable health in every turn and can't be blocked with shields - I don't want to repeat myself, but copared with the usual critters that can be blocked by shields, they are overpowered

  - seems fine, but I didn't have big coplaints how it was before (without the  quanta cost), becaus I was already used to make decks that were anti-splats  . Now the new version just limits some splat version, i don't think that it is necessary and that changes much.

  - someone mentioned earlier that this shard was actually used in some decks but I haven't noticed that. Seems a bit underpowered, because it takes too many other cards (shards) to play them. If this one gonna need more earth quanta, it will be even weaker

  - the best and funniest cards in the game, luckily the nerf doesn't change much

  - usless if not harmful card in the deck (because it takes the valuable room), even immo rushes are doing better without them

  - 3 deflags and BH which cost 9 separately cost 6 and thst is IN ONE CARD, which saves valuable room. Clearly overpowered. But sadly enough this game needs much more permanent control after that card will be "nerfed"

    - already much tested and fine shards imo

  - gain plus 1 or 2 (water critter) but don't attack. That costs approximately nothing, but usually growing critters need quanta for the grow and they grow sepearately, not en masse. Mixed feelings about this, because i would really like to have a bit more options to stop that growing and maybe a possibility to destroy shards en masse (like earthquake for permanents).

To conclude, I don't see where double-forcing is doing some good or even balancing anything, it doesn't balance shards, but it just nerfes nova-based rainbows a little again, but that's sad, because I like rainbows, but on the other hand it is really good idea to bring shards back into the pvp events.

[choongmyoung]

They are double-forced indeed and I have no idea why that is so good. To force to play monos? Probably no, because monos are relatively boring and they exhaust themselves quickly. Maybe there was an intention just to bring Shards into the game, because they were just habitually ignored by the most important pvp events, because they were "others" and also rare "others". The other thing was their imbalanceness, then the intention could be just to disallow to spam overpowered shards with rainbows, but the problem is not in rainbows but in each shard separately.

  - 4 damage with 2 quanta (in the new version) is  overpowered copared with the blessing, but it is much more overpowered when the possible ways to counter them are very narrow. When SoF is nerfed by that and that new card comes out which allows to restore Dim Shield, aether will be the strongest element. Because I usually feel so helpless against that shard and I can't do much against those, for me it is subjectively the worst card in the game. Comparing this with CP(1 for +3|+3), Blessing(2 for +3|+3), this is balanced. The problem is - it can target Immortals and even grants spell damage. Originally Quint is double-faced because you can't buff it. This buffs immaterials and even grants pseudo-momentum.

  - because of the limited ways of the permanent control in the game, even those are overpowered If you say of its cheapness you could be right, but the effect is not OP.

  - minus 3 unrecoverable health in every turn and can't be blocked with shields - I don't want to repeat myself, but copared with the usual critters that can be blocked by shields, they are overpowered This is considered as one of the most UP cards in EtG. Hopefully it is cheaper now.

  - seems fine, but I didn't have big coplaints how it was before (without the  quanta cost), becaus I was already used to make decks that were anti-splats  . Now the new version just limits some splat version, i don't think that it is necessary and that changes much.

  - someone mentioned earlier that this shard was actually used in some decks but I haven't noticed that. Seems a bit underpowered, because it takes too many other cards (shards) to play them. If this one gonna need more earth quanta, it will be even weaker Did you tried the deck The Ultimate?

  - the best and funniest cards in the game, luckily the nerf doesn't change much Now QTSNbow and PSNbow using this are dead.

  - usless if not harmful card in the deck (because it takes the valuable room), even immo rushes are doing better without them Immo rushes are doing better with this.

  - 3 deflags and BH which cost 9 separately cost 6 and thst is IN ONE CARD, which saves valuable room. Clearly overpowered. But sadly enough this game needs much more permanent control after that card will be "nerfed" If you want to use that generated BH, you need additional 3 .

    - already much tested and fine shards imo

  - gain plus 1 or 2 (water critter) but don't attack. That costs approximately nothing, but usually growing critters need quanta for the grow and they grow sepearately, not en masse. Mixed feelings about this, because i would really like to have a bit more options to stop that growing and maybe a possibility to destroy shards en masse (like earthquake for permanents). But they stop to attack. It's different from Forest Spirit or Golem.

To conclude, I don't see where double-forcing is doing some good or even balancing anything, it doesn't balance shards, but it just nerfes nova-based rainbows a little again, but that's sad, because I like rainbows, but on the other hand it is really good idea to bring shards back into the pvp events.

[pervepic]

They are double-forced indeed and I have no idea why that is so good. To force to play monos? Probably no, because monos are relatively boring and they exhaust themselves quickly. Maybe there was an intention just to bring Shards into the game, because they were just habitually ignored by the most important pvp events, because they were "others" and also rare "others". The other thing was their imbalanceness, then the intention could be just to disallow to spam overpowered shards with rainbows, but the problem is not in rainbows but in each shard separately.

  - 4 damage with 2 quanta (in the new version) is  overpowered copared with the blessing, but it is much more overpowered when the possible ways to counter them are very narrow. When SoF is nerfed by that and that new card comes out which allows to restore Dim Shield, aether will be the strongest element. Because I usually feel so helpless against that shard and I can't do much against those, for me it is subjectively the worst card in the game. Comparing this with CP(1 for +3|+3), Blessing(2 for +3|+3), this is balanced. The problem is - it can target Immortals and even grants spell damage. Originally Quint is double-faced because you can't buff it. This buffs immaterials and even grants pseudo-momentum. Yea I know what it does and that's why this is just a bad card.

  - because of the limited ways of the permanent control in the game, even those are overpowered If you say of its cheapness you could be right, but the effect is not OP. OPness includes cheapness and effect combined.

  - minus 3 unrecoverable health in every turn and can't be blocked with shields - I don't want to repeat myself, but copared with the usual critters that can be blocked by shields, they are overpowered This is considered as one of the most UP cards in EtG. Hopefully it is cheaper now.
"Is considered" by who and based on what? 3 damage for 3 unblockable damage is a lot compared with critters, that's too obvious.

  - seems fine, but I didn't have big coplaints how it was before (without the  quanta cost), becaus I was already used to make decks that were anti-splats  . Now the new version just limits some splat version, i don't think that it is necessary and that changes much.

  - someone mentioned earlier that this shard was actually used in some decks but I haven't noticed that. Seems a bit underpowered, because it takes too many other cards (shards) to play them. If this one gonna need more earth quanta, it will be even weaker Did you tried the deck The Ultimate? I guess so, but it wasn't anything special.

  - the best and funniest cards in the game, luckily the nerf doesn't change much Now QTSNbow and PSNbow using this are dead. They are not dead, but you have to wait a bit more. Not sure I approve this though.

  - usless if not harmful card in the deck (because it takes the valuable room), even immo rushes are doing better without them Immo rushes are doing better with this. No, they don't.

  - 3 deflags and BH which cost 9 separately cost 6 and thst is IN ONE CARD, which saves valuable room. Clearly overpowered. But sadly enough this game needs much more permanent control after that card will be "nerfed" If you want to use that generated BH, you need additional 3 . No, if I play upgraded shard.

    - already much tested and fine shards imo

  - gain plus 1 or 2 (water critter) but don't attack. That costs approximately nothing, but usually growing critters need quanta for the grow and they grow sepearately, not en masse. Mixed feelings about this, because i would really like to have a bit more options to stop that growing and maybe a possibility to destroy shards en masse (like earthquake for permanents). But they stop to attack. It's different from Forest Spirit or Golem. That what i was saying.

To conclude, I don't see where double-forcing is doing some good or even balancing anything, it doesn't balance shards, but it just nerfes nova-based rainbows a little again, but that's sad, because I like rainbows, but on the other hand it is really good idea to bring shards back into the pvp events.

[choongmyoung]

- It's not damage. It only decreases max HP not current HP. It means if you play other critters with this and your opponent do not use Miracle or Heal, it's completely a dead card.
- rushy AND unstoppable. Not OP as hell but it's never UP.
- I tested the new shard(upped), this worked. The point is, you need the Amethyst Tower.

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- You need even more to use BH if you play the unupped one.