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Offline Tirear

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Re: Is 30 cards always the optimum deck size? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47645.msg1050499#msg1050499
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2013, 06:55:08 pm »
I ran some simulations in the game simulator one by one, in order to see why the 60 card deck was losing so often. I found that they tended to come from terrible hands, like getting no creates in 11 turns. However, I noticed a suspicous trend of life pendulums, despite the deck having an even pillar/pend split. Many games of looking just at the starting hands later, I confirmed that life pillars could come up. So, I started over and counted my results. In the next 30 games, 14 of them had a starting hand of all life pendulums (and no hands of all life pillars, or even all pillars + pends with some of each). Something is wrong with the game simulator.

Offline pervepic

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Re: Is 30 cards always the optimum deck size? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47645.msg1050567#msg1050567
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2013, 11:42:49 pm »
60-card deck is fine when you don't have so essential cards for win - you don't have bad draws when all cards are good or you have replacements of the similar kind or you don't know what exactly to put in the deck or you want to make your deck more balanced when oracle gave you 5 shields. I have had several successful fat 60-card decks in Arena, 3 at least were nr 1, but I usually prefer smaller because they are easier to make; big decks need big protection and healing often because of the slowness Majofa and others mentioned. Nice stats there, it was even surprising that second essential card comes quicker for fat deck, but it seems so indeed. I also agree that quanta index should be 5 or so, but for upgraded deck it could be also 6, depends.
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Re: Is 30 cards always the optimum deck size? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47645.msg1050576#msg1050576
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2013, 12:10:41 am »
I ran some simulations in the game simulator one by one, in order to see why the 60 card deck was losing so often. I found that they tended to come from terrible hands, like getting no creates in 11 turns. However, I noticed a suspicous trend of life pendulums, despite the deck having an even pillar/pend split. Many games of looking just at the starting hands later, I confirmed that life pillars could come up. So, I started over and counted my results. In the next 30 games, 14 of them had a starting hand of all life pendulums (and no hands of all life pillars, or even all pillars + pends with some of each). Something is wrong with the game simulator.

Or, you know, really bad RNG.

Offline blarpTopic starter

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Re: Is 30 cards always the optimum deck size? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47645.msg1050578#msg1050578
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2013, 12:22:57 am »
The game itself is a really bad RNG.

I think the differences we're finding are due to variances in att/cost.

How to solve this.... Duo deck with equivalent value creatures? Like abyss and earth golem?
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Offline blarpTopic starter

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Re: Is 30 cards always the optimum deck size? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47645.msg1050593#msg1050593
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2013, 12:49:39 am »
Hmm so what are the most overpriced cards which would always be worse than another card+additional pillars?

If you have a deck of unupped phase spiders and aether pillars, 30 cards, how many cards would you have to add to a phase recluse+aether pillar deck to get the same ttw approximately? Ex. 24pillars6spiders=43pillars6recluses?
Or 24pillars6spiders=27pillars3recluses?
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Offline Dragoon

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Re: Is 30 cards always the optimum deck size? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47645.msg1050601#msg1050601
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2013, 01:12:18 am »
No, I don't think that 30 cards is always the optimum deck size. I don't even think that 30 cards is always the best size for rush decks. I think the right deck size is based on a confluence of factors like probabilities, output needed, opponent's deck, etc.

Some reasons you may run a deck with more than 30 cards:

1. You're using a stall or control deck.

2. You don't want to deck-out in case of a stalemate. So you a use 31- or 32-card deck.

3. You need a fast deck with a lot of output. I usually call these kind of decks "tank decks". It's a deck that can blitzkrieg like normal rushes, but it usually has more creatures than a normal rush deck in order to give it extra staying-power and firepower to plow through CC, shields, and healing. It's a little less consistent, but makes up for it by giving you extra output which is handy against certain deck types.

3. You need to balance your quanta. Sometimes when you're balancing quanta, you find that adding a Dragon as the 30th card gives you a nice QI of 5. But playing only 1 Dragon is generally a bad idea because you're balancing your quanta based on 1 expensive creature which you have a slim probability of actually drawing. In the end, you end up being quanta-heavy in almost all your games. Instead, it makes sense to add two 5 :rainbow creatures instead of a Dragon, giving you 31 cards. This is a better way to balance your quanta usually, imo.

Offline aefields

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Re: Is 30 cards always the optimum deck size? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47645.msg1056368#msg1056368
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2013, 11:01:18 am »
No.  Running out of cards is bad.

Offline Fireleaf

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Re: Is 30 cards always the optimum deck size? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47645.msg1056376#msg1056376
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2013, 12:06:44 pm »
The optimal deck size is clearly 24 cards.  :P
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Re: Is 30 cards always the optimum deck size? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47645.msg1056384#msg1056384
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2013, 12:45:52 pm »
No.  Running out of cards is bad.

If you're running out of cards with a 30 card deck, you're either facing a deckout stall, or you're using a type of deck that isn't meant to be 30 cards.
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Offline iancudorinmarian

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Re: Is 30 cards always the optimum deck size? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47645.msg1056386#msg1056386
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2013, 01:06:26 pm »
I think yes, it is mostly the optimum size, unless your deck lacks something (quantum, attack, defense etc) and you need to add them, but mostly I stick with 30 cards (except stalls and control decks of course).

Offline RavingRabbid

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Re: Is 30 cards always the optimum deck size? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47645.msg1056419#msg1056419
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2013, 04:04:51 pm »
1 phase dragon, 29 towers
2 phase dragon 28 towers
3 phase dragon 27 towers
4 phase dragon 26 towers
5 phase dragon 25 towers
6 phase dragon 24 towers
6 phase dragon 25 towers
6 phase dragons 26 towers
etc....
Doing something similar with Giant Frog resulted in 22/23 Giant Frogs - 8 towers being the optimal result. I haven't tested for different sizes.
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Re: Is 30 cards always the optimum deck size? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47645.msg1056537#msg1056537
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2013, 11:01:27 pm »
Lo and behold, I found the topic of my next strategic analysis.
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