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PuppyChow

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Fire Stall's Status in the Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31247.msg395943#msg395943
« on: September 20, 2011, 03:13:33 am »
PLEASE NOTE: I AM NOT SUGGESTING WE FORMALLY BAN FIRE STALL, BUT RATHER DO SOMETHING MORE INFORMAL.
CURRENT NOTICES (THIS WILL BE UPDATED FROM TIME TO TIME):
            - THIS IS NOT SAYING A PERMANENT CHANGE NEEDS TO BE MADE, THIS IS JUST FOR THE TIME BETWEEN.
            - THIS IS NOT A WHINING TOPIC. THE CHANGE IS BEING SUGGESTED TO BETTER THE METAGAME OVERALL.
            - NEW POLLS ADDED, OLD ONE LOCKED.




Okay, so I'm making this topic to discuss the use of fire stall in the metagame. This topic is NOT to suggest changes to any cards; do that in other topics.

However, fire stall is an apparent problem in the meta due to its strength and versatility. So, I'm proposing an informal agreement among those of us in the Championship League, or even the Beginner's League or general competitions:

We don't use it.

Reason? When fire stall is used, it reduces the game to essentially a rock paper scissors game. The players in this game are fire stall, fire stall counters, and other decks. Fire stall counters generally lose to other decks (like speedbows, immo rushes, and such), fire stalls lose to the counters, and the other decks lose to the fire stall.

However, if we can erase this outer shell of rock paper scissors, it eliminates the fire stall and the fire stall counters. Then only the other decks category is left, and I believe that within this category, while there are certain decks that may be higher tier than others, there is a fairly level playing field. Which makes for a much more fun metagame.

So what am I going to do?

I am telling you right now -- I will never use a fire stall in a Championship League match. If that gives you an advantage by knowing what I won't use, well that's that. However, that arises as more proof fire stall is too powerful: if telling somebody that you aren't going to use a certain deck actually gives that person a large noticeable advantage, that isn't right. If I told you I wasn't going to use fractal phoenixes, that wouldn't give you as big of an advantage. Same with any other deck type.
 
Aw heck naw, I wanna win!

If you take this stance, so be it. Just know that I am opposed to your viewpoint -- I play to have fun, and winning is fun, yes, but winning with a clearly unfair deck is not. Winning with a deck that makes the metagame boring is not fun. And also know that if you DO use a fire stall, my opinion of you will drastically lower, ESPECIALLY if a large number of people agree to this resolution. This is because if a lot of people agree with me, then fire stall should become even a MORE powerful deck because people won't be expecting it. Ths it will be equivalent to free wins.

But I use it because I'm a good player, so I use good decks.

If you think you're a good player because you can regurgitate already done decks and use them, especially use ones as cliche and easy as fire stall, you're dead wrong. The skill in a good player is in winning without the best archetypes. Winning with unorthodox or inventive decks. At its heart, being good is all about being good at building your own decks, not copying others.

Why should you join me?

Mostly because SRJKGWSKRGNSRGNAKM JUST DO IT.

But seriously, if we, as a community, can make fire stall such a taboo deck that it's frowned upon as much as things like public nudity (sorry, first example that came to mind), then it will be used very rarely. If you don't think that's a good thing go ahead and say why.

Is this wishful thinking?

Maybe. So be it.

The goal of this topic: Make everybody's vote be "not at all."

kirchj33

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Re: Fire Stall's Status in the Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31247.msg395949#msg395949
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2011, 03:25:03 am »
I just think firebolt needs a nerf.  It would probably make the entire element really close to being balanced.  How is this accomplished?  No idea.  Until then, people will continue to display their public nudity.

PuppyChow

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Re: Fire Stall's Status in the Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31247.msg395950#msg395950
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2011, 03:27:42 am »
I just think firebolt needs a nerf.  It would probably make the entire element really close to being balanced.  How is this accomplished?  No idea.  Until then, people will continue to display their public nudity.
I partly agree.

However, until Zanz officially does something about fire stall, I'm going on a campaign to halt its use in the meta. Again, wishful thinking? Maybe.

redium

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Re: Fire Stall's Status in the Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31247.msg395955#msg395955
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2011, 03:40:28 am »
Play to have fun, be creative, and experiment. 

Offline bripod

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Re: Fire Stall's Status in the Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31247.msg395975#msg395975
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2011, 04:24:19 am »
Until then, people will continue to display their public nudity.
Yay! to "displaying your public nudity!"  ;D

Offline dragonsdemesne

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Re: Fire Stall's Status in the Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31247.msg396012#msg396012
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2011, 07:13:51 am »
For the poll, do you mean "do I ever play using firestall?" or "do I ever post firestall as my arena deck?"

The answer to question #1 is never.  Other elements or combinations make better stalls.
The answer to question #2 is yes.  With double draw it's mean in the arena, since its hand is usually near-empty.

I do play monofire sometimes, but when I do, it's a cremation/destroyer rush deck, not a stall, and in the arena I prefer to build that rather than firestall, if I spin a card that works in either deck.

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Re: Fire Stall's Status in the Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31247.msg396015#msg396015
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2011, 07:21:40 am »
I just think firebolt needs a nerf.  It would probably make the entire element really close to being balanced.  How is this accomplished?  No idea.  Until then, people will continue to display their public nudity.
May I point you to this here discussion? (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30797.0.html) I'd be eager to know your opinions and add your comments to the thread.
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Re: Fire Stall's Status in the Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31247.msg396020#msg396020
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2011, 07:34:34 am »
Yeah Morm's topic might be a better place to discuss this. Until/if it's moved/merged though, I'll put a short version of my :electrum.

An informal ban is more likely than not going to be wishful thinking. Discounting the Kong players (and everyone seems to), you'll always have those people who will either take advantage of the system or just hold the 10 electrum per win on Arena to more importance than being a fair player. A nerf of Firebolt may help, but really Fire's a tricky element to balance. It was dealt a good hand (pun not intended), and whether by accident or by intention Fire's the strongest element in the mono environment (I wish I could say it wasn't, but well...).

Even so, I voted yes for an informal ban, just because ideally it would be nice for us to get along and agree on something...the Elements Community is one of the most decent I've seen on the internet.

Chances are though, a nerf is still a bit of a ways away, since Zanz is busy and player suggestions take a while to filter up to him.

Either that, or we could just replace Firestalls with a more annoying and universally despised mechanic.



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Re: Fire Stall's Status in the Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31247.msg396105#msg396105
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2011, 11:31:20 am »
Firestall is overpowered in BL, CL, Arena, sometimes even tourneys and events. But this isn't the right way to approach the problem. A lot of people will use what they want to if there is no rule restricting them, and some will claim that they didn't know about the boycott. There are two better ways to solve it.

1.) Convince Zanz that Firestall and other popular deck types are overpowered and should be nerfed. Look at Mormegil's Metagame thread; it's a great example of this and one of the best reads on the forum.

2.) Ban overpowered cards from BL and CL. I don't think SG spends very much time playing competitively, but with enough support from the players and the LOs, we can get a few overpowered cards banned. It will make the Leagues a lot more better and interesting. And anyone can create a PvP Event; and a popular player with a good idea will likely be able to have their event run. So make PvP Events that prevent powerful strategies like Firestall from being used.
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ndclub

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Re: Fire Stall's Status in the Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31247.msg396115#msg396115
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2011, 12:27:59 pm »
The more people you get to agree to not use firestall, the less of a problem it will appear to the aforementioned meta. The only way things are balanced in strategy games is overwhelming evidence of it being always used or never used. Sadly getting everyone to play firestall will remedy the situation a lot more than boycotting it.

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Re: Fire Stall's Status in the Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31247.msg396120#msg396120
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2011, 12:40:34 pm »
I won a CL without ever using Firestall.



//ok, I used it in my first game because I hadn't had anything crafted//.
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kirchj33

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Re: Fire Stall's Status in the Metagame https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=31247.msg396148#msg396148
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2011, 02:25:00 pm »
I just think firebolt needs a nerf.  It would probably make the entire element really close to being balanced.  How is this accomplished?  No idea.  Until then, people will continue to display their public nudity.
May I point you to this here discussion? (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30797.0.html) I'd be eager to know your opinions and add your comments to the thread.
Yeah, I had been keeping an eye on that thread.  Mostly because it is very interesting to see what people feel are the strongest decktypes that run the meta.  I will comment there as well.

 

blarg: