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Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

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So the ideal non-rainbow deck size is 30 cards? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=906.msg8381#msg8381
« on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:09 pm »

I often get confused about optimal pillar amounts... So generally how many pillars should I put, for either high or low cost key cards?
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Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

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So the ideal non-rainbow deck size is 30 cards? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=906.msg8382#msg8382
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:09 pm »

I remember seeing SG say that for all decks without extra draws, the best deck size is 30; she said it was mathematically correct.

So my question is: what is the ideal proportion of cards in a 30-card deck? There are several factors to consider:

How many elements does the deck have.

What Mark do you have.

All cards in a 30-card deck can be divided into 3 categories: pillars (or other quanta generation cards), key cards, and extra cards (useful but not essential). The key cards can also be divided into low-cost and high-cost.

So what would be the ideal proportions for different types of 30-card decks, each with different numbers of high-cost and low-cost key cards?
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

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So the ideal non-rainbow deck size is 30 cards? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=906.msg8383#msg8383
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:09 pm »

The main thing I'm asking here is deck optimization.

Suppose I want to build the following deck:

Elements: Dark/Light
Key Card 1: Minor Vampire - Low cost
Key Card 2: Blessing - Low cost
Key Card 3: Nightfall - High cost
Extra Card 1: Drain Life- Low cost
Extra Card 2: Steal - Low cost
Extra Card 3: Dusk Mantle - High cost
Extra Card 4: Morning Star - High cost

How do I optimize that into a 30-card deck? I'd prefer to have 6 Vampires and Blessings.

Normally, for a Dual deck, I'd put in 35-40 cards. But after hearing SG say that 30-card decks are the best, I want to see how I can optimize the above deck.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

Daxx

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So the ideal non-rainbow deck size is 30 cards? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=906.msg8384#msg8384
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:09 pm »

This hasn't quite been made explicit, so here's the principle.

Games last for an average of X turns (where X is some unknown variable which is probably less than 30). This means that even with the smallest deck allowed you will not be drawing all your cards unless you have some powerful card draw like Hourglasses or Sundials.

Before you start you need to work out what proportion of pillars you want in your deck (this can be modified by the card you put in, so you may want to revisit this step whilst tweaking your decklist). This then gives you a proportion of non-pillar cards that you should stick to.

A deck revolves around a few key cards. In your example they are:

Key Card 1: Minor Vampire - Low cost
Key Card 2: Blessing - Low cost
Key Card 3: Nightfall - High cost
Now, you want to draw as many Minor Vampires and Blessings as you possibly can, because they are what is making you win. Therefore, you put the maximum number of those in. This sets up the general principle which is that any card you add to the deck from this point onwards reduces the chance of you drawing one of these cards. Therefore, you include the absolute minimum number of other cards you can. Generally this means you want to have 30 cards in your deck in order to maximise your chances (one in five) of drawing a key card.

Nightfall is slightly different because multiple Nightfalls don't help. Ideally you want to draw one or two over the course of the game. You therefore work out the odds of drawing a Nightfall by turn X (or more likely before X if they are essential) with various different percentages and put them in the deck in that proportion. This principle can be used to work out how many supporting cards you want to include:

Extra Card 1: Drain Life- Low cost
Extra Card 2: Steal - Low cost
Extra Card 3: Dusk Mantle - High cost
Extra Card 4: Morning Star - High cost
You might want to draw one or two Dusk Mantles and Morning Stars over the course of the game, and maybe one or two Steals and Drain Lifes depending on how essential you feel they are, so you do the same thing. If there are any remaining slots that can't be filled with more key cards, then now is the time to add in those extra Drain Lifes. But you shouldn't just add cards above the total of thirty for the sake of it, since that way you're diluting your key cards.

Does that make sense?

Scaredgirl

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So the ideal non-rainbow deck size is 30 cards? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=906.msg8385#msg8385
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:09 pm »

I often get confused about optimal pillar amounts... So generally how many pillars should I put, for either high or low cost key cards?
Depending on the cost of your cards, I would say the optimal amount is something between 10-13. I usually start with 12 and then make adjustments if needed. After 10+ matches you'll start to see if you need to add or remove Towers.

Remember, do not take too many towers. This is a mistake many new players do.

Scaredgirl

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So the ideal non-rainbow deck size is 30 cards? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=906.msg8386#msg8386
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:09 pm »

Mark of Light

12x Obisian Pillar
5x Minor Vampire
4x Blessing
1x Morning Star
2x Nightfall
3x Steal
1x Dusk Mantle
3x Drain Life

Note that this will work better with Improved Blessings. I used 12 Pillars because you have a couple high cost spells inside there, so 10 would be too few to reliably get enough quantum to play all of your spells. You could probably swap a Steal or a DL for another Pillar if you are having problems. Though, really, Light/Darkness isn't that great of a combo. =/
Something like that would probably work. Although Morning Star is too expensive to pay for with only mark. I would take Vampiric Dagger.

Also that deck has 31 cards, so maybe drop one Steal or Nightfall.

SnDance

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So the ideal non-rainbow deck size is 30 cards? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=906.msg8387#msg8387
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:09 pm »

Basically, unless you have time, you can only have an effective deck with 30 cards. Otherwise you usually don't get the cards you need when you need them.

So the ideal non-rainbow deck size is 30 cards? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=906.msg8388#msg8388
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:09 pm »

31? Really? I must have miscounted. >.<

So the ideal non-rainbow deck size is 30 cards? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=906.msg8389#msg8389
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:09 pm »

Mark of Light

12x Obisian Pillar
5x Minor Vampire
4x Blessing
1x Morning Star
2x Nightfall
3x Steal
1x Dusk Mantle
3x Drain Life

Note that this will work better with Improved Blessings. I used 12 Pillars because you have a couple high cost spells inside there, so 10 would be too few to reliably get enough quantum to play all of your spells. You could probably swap a Steal or a DL for another Pillar if you are having problems. Though, really, Light/Darkness isn't that great of a combo. =/

Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

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So the ideal non-rainbow deck size is 30 cards? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=906.msg8487#msg8487
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:12 pm »

Does it matter if you're using only one kind of pillar or two kinds of pillars?
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

PuppyChow

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So the ideal non-rainbow deck size is 30 cards? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=906.msg8488#msg8488
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:12 pm »

Yes; with two kinds of pillars, you generally don't need 10-12 of each. For instance, I have this poison deck:

-4x Arctic Octopus
-5x Physalia
-6x Deadly Poison
-1x Congeal
-1x Arsenic
-7x Bone Towers
-6x Water Towers
-Mark of Water

I'm not sure if it's optomized (I haven't done much tweaking), but my total pillar count is between 6-7 of each. The only "high" cost cards I have is the arctic octopus, though. And that really only requires me to get 2 water towers since you generally only need one congeal per turn.

 

blarg: