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Rooftrellen

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Standard Text and Hidden Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13610.msg171416#msg171416
« on: October 05, 2010, 08:42:33 pm »
Which is smaller, a 1/50 creature, or a 50/1 creature?

Answers may vary.  After all, the first will get extra attacks from adrenaline, which is better for smaller creatures, but it is not smaller than an otyugh, while the second is.

Basically, the same thing on a card should not mean two different things.

Then how about burrow?  How does burrow effect attack?  I'm betting you said it cuts it in half, which is only partially true.  Burrow cuts it in half for all creatures except the devourer/pest, which has an attack that is untouched.  You might say that's fine, as well, because the text of the card points out when the attack is cut and when it is not, but how does this idea hold up against devour?  The otyugh has text that says it gets +1/+1. but the scarab does not, yet it does still get the boost from eating.

Now, let's move on to the hidden rules.  Shard of readiness restricts ability usage to once per turn, poison only applies on every other attack, if a poisonous creature gets multiple attacks per turn, gravity pull acts as a shield, spells that affect all creatures "target" each one, and these are only a few of the hidden rules to the game.

This actually often goes hand in hand with what is written on the card, of course, which is why these two complaints are together.

The fact of the matter is, it can't even be found anywhere what the numbers on creatures mean, or that cards that don't cost specific quanta take randomly, let alone these more obscure rules, which even people that have played something like MTG would only find out by trial and error.

Most of these hidden rules are card specific, not something overall in the game, though the overall "how to play" could be better laid out, too.  However, the only possible way to know that shard of readiness restricts ability use to once per turn is to either have someone else tell you or try it yourself, which means, in the beginning, someone had to try it out and find the hidden wall.

Hidden rules just make the game needlessly annoying, particularly for newer players that are just looking at the cards, and maybe the wiki, and are otherwise not warned of these restrictions, except what the card states.

I think the solution to both of these problems is actually very simple, go over the cards and make sure they are doing what they say, with terms made standard.

This would not increase the amount of text on most cards, and those that would get increased text would get very little.  Many cards could get reduced text!

For instance, a new text for some example cards.

Gravity Pull:  Target creature acts as a shield for all damage directed at its owner.  This will take effect before any other shield.

Adrenaline:  The target creature attacks multiple times per turn.  Weaker creatures get more attacks.

Otyugh:   :gravity: Devour

Shard of Readiness:  Target creature's skill cost is now zero and cannot be used multiple times per turn.

Graboid:  :time: Evolve (Shrieker)

Shrieker:  :earth: Burrow

Then, in the wiki, or somewhere on the website, there could be a list of what every effect does.  Many creatures only need the name of the skill, if the skills are listed somewhere, and all the effects are constant.  So long as burrow always cuts attack in half, and its stated somewhere in a list of "rules," there is no need to list the exact effect every time it appears...or at all, just that one time for people to reference.

Heck, if needed, I could go through and make sure all the text on the cards is correct for what the actual effect is (and grammar...pet peeve in Elements is seeing "quantums" written on a card), and make a list of things that need to be better explained.  These hidden rules and lack of a standard vocabulary in the game isn't very newb friendly, and it likely scares many people away.

Happy new people is good for us all, and so is the idea of making sure these things are standardized now, so better, more precise ideas come later.

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Re: Standard Text and Hidden Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13610.msg171423#msg171423
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2010, 09:01:25 pm »

suxerz

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Re: Standard Text and Hidden Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13610.msg171444#msg171444
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2010, 09:47:39 pm »
This has been pointed out in various threads. Not to say that I disagree of having more intuitive card description, but we have to admit that this game has only one developer - a very dedicated one if I might add. There are other stuff which have higher priorities (e.g. bugs, desync, etc). Some might also agree that the fun part of this game is to understand the mechanics by yourself.

This is where the wiki and this forum comes very handy. We also have the trainer  (http://www.elementsthegame.com/trainer) for free testing. I would recommend advance rules (http://elementswiki.co.cc/basics/rules-of-the-game/) and smuglapse's topic Game Mechanics (i.e. The Expanded Rules) (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,11691.0.html) for further reading.


Off-topic.
Then how about burrow?  How does burrow effect attack?  I'm betting you said it cuts it in half, which is only partially true.  Burrow cuts it in half for all creatures except the devourer/pest, which has an attack that is untouched.  You might say that's fine, as well, because the text of the card points out when the attack is cut and when it is not, but how does this idea hold up against devour?
This part about devourer/pest is not true. Have you ever tried blessing a devourer/pest? Here is what will happen:

--burrow--> --unburrow--> 1. You might be confused with nightfall/eclipse - it will give you +1/+2 to darkness creature regardless of its status.
2. You might ask why ask why when the devourer/pest didn't get its full attack when unburrows. You could called it as a bug but the way it works that when burrow the creature's attack gets halved (rounded down) when unburrows, creature's attack gets doubled.


For momentumed devourer/pest:
--burrow-->  --unburrow-->

QuantumT

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Re: Standard Text and Hidden Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13610.msg171467#msg171467
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2010, 10:31:13 pm »
This kind of think happens in all CCGs really. I could give you examples of MTG cards that have ridiculous amounts of errata.

The problem with taking out the descriptions of the abilities is that new players would be required then to go to the wiki. As it is right now, the cards descriptions are usually sufficient, with only some occasional things that aren't clear.

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Re: Standard Text and Hidden Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13610.msg171469#msg171469
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2010, 10:34:49 pm »
Other important things:

1) Gravity Shield does NOT block creatures with 5 HP.
2) Gravity Pull does not block weapons in the weapon slot, (or momentum). OK, the card text doesn´t mention it. Your text is better, but not completely correct.
3) The numbers on the creatures are explained in the tutorial (lvl 0).

@ new text for Graboid, Shrieker: Devour is not explained on Scarab and Burrow is not explained on Devourer, so the explaination is necessary on Otyugh / Shrieker.

I assume that zanz thinks, that if an ability is explained on one card, it needn´t be explained on another one, if the card text becomes too long.

Quote
Then, in the wiki, or somewhere on the website, there could be a list of what every effect does.  Many creatures only need the name of the skill, if the skills are listed somewhere, and all the effects are constant.  So long as burrow always cuts attack in half, and its stated somewhere in a list of "rules," there is no need to list the exact effect every time it appears...or at all, just that one time for people to reference.
The list of abilities exists in the wiki (http://elementswiki.co.cc/basics/abilities/)
Also exists a page for all cards (and hopefully for the most important "hidden rules").
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Kuross

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Re: Standard Text and Hidden Rules https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=13610.msg171612#msg171612
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2010, 02:17:20 am »
This kind of think happens in all CCGs really. I could give you examples of MTG cards that have ridiculous amounts of errata.
Hehe, first one that comes to mind is "Humility." It was on my MtG judge's test back in the day ;)


I agree, this game, for all it's simplicity, does have some hidden rules and though it would be nice to have readily availiable information on the cards, it won't be realistic. Just like other CCGs, cards will run into other cards that will change how the card works, or will interact with other cards thereby changing the fundamental aspect of that card's playability. Take a look at the recent nightmare/mind gate (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,11309.0.html) thread. It may not totally illustrate a card's individual use/info but it does shed light on the complexity of the game. Also, as more cards are introduced, those cards will have an impact that is, as of this moment, indetermined as to what those new cards will do to other cards.

The simple answer, in my opinion, would be to make sure the Wiki, or somewhere on the site, there is a comprehensive listing of each card and their relelvant information so players, new and old, can use it for reference.

 

anything
blarg: