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Offline Trask238Topic starter

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My Perspective https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50663.msg1091283#msg1091283
« on: August 08, 2013, 03:03:33 am »
Speaking as someone who fell in love with CCG's back when Magic: The Gathering was still in Beta, I feel the need to offer the following suggestions to make this game a bit better.  Don't get me wrong, I actually enjoy playing Elements--the complexity, the creativity, the fact that yours is the first game of its kind to actually have more than 4 or 5  elements; all these things are extremely well done.  That being said, let's get on with the aforementioned ideas:

1) Communication:  If something disappears from my play area, I should be made aware of it the moment it happens.  The AI, I noticed, does leave its cards up for a second so you can see them, but there is barely enough time to read one, much less the 3 or 4 often played.  Your opponent's graveyard (discard pile) should always be visible, the spells being played should be displayed a bit longer (at player's discretion/toggle for AI), and the addition of a sound effect or splat visual would be very helpful.

2) Shuffling:  I have yet to see a single game where the AI starts with less than 3 resource cards in opening hand.  Players, on the other hand, (at least in my case) are consistently "mana-screwed" at least once every four games.  I shouldn't be discarding on turn 2.  The standard remedy is to allow a player to take a mulligan (re-shuffle and new opening hand) if their opening hand contains too few resources (in M:TG, standard tournament rules allowed players to take a mulligan if their opening hand contained either zero basic resources or if all 7 cards were basic resources).  There is absolutely nothing more frustrating than watching yourself lose because your own deck is beating you.

3) Acquisition:  To date, I have played just over 200 games.  Of these, I have won 157 times.  Of those wins, nearly all were at Lvl 2 or higher.  So out of about 300 spins on that wheel, I've gotten 18 cards.  That's a "win" about 6% of the time.  Of those 18 cards, I actually put 3 of them to use.  That means that, so far, I've gotten a card that is useful to me approximately 1% of the time.  I've gotten 3 cards from the Oracle and used none of them.  You really need to up the rewards system a bit.

4) Points/Coins System:  I actually like the system that you have in place.  However, it's bad enough to go ten minutes and lose a game.  To force someone to lose both points and coins in addition to this makes it a colossal waste of time.  This is made especially clear when one realizes that the extremely limited number of quests is completely dependent upon your points and the primary means of obtaining new cards is with your coins.  Basically, it adds up to only the people who really don't need the rewards being the ones who keep getting them. 

5)  What, exactly, are "Upgraded Cards"  How do you get them?  How do they become upgraded?  There is absolutely no information anywhere that I can find that answers these questions.

Anyway, that's all for now.  I hope my ideas prove helpful.  Thanks for reading.

Offline Drake_XIV

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Re: My Perspective https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50663.msg1091286#msg1091286
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2013, 03:49:57 am »
[1] Well, there isn't much to be said besides becoming familiar with the relatively tiny card pool and just paying a bit more attention to what is happening.  And there are sound effects to tell you that an effect has occurred, especially when a card has been removed from the field.  In fact, I don't believe there is a card effect that does not have an accompanying sound effect.

[2] There is an auto-mulligan already in place, which occurs when there are no 0-cost cards in a given hand.  However, this only occurs once per match, so if the following mulligan is in itself lacking

One remediation is to reconsider your quanta/cost ratio.  Yes, there is a quanta pool, so you aren't required to stock as many pillars in a deck as you would land in an MtG deck, but do consider that you will still need a considerable number and proper balance among elements.

[3] Perhaps one of the issues at hand is that AI2 is composed of randomized decks [same goes for AI4], rather than the prebuilt set seen in AI3.  Since the card winnings at the end are dependent on the composition of the losing deck, it probably isn't a good idea to consider AI2 wins when calculating card wins.  Aside from that, card spins are really a statistics game.  I'm not sure about the actual statistics for card wins in AI3, for example, but I am sure they are much higher than that.

If you want to increase card winnings, you can try out the Arena.  After you get on a streak, you get an additional spin at the end.  In this spin, if you do win, you are guaranteed a Rare card.

[4] I personally feel that the score/electrum system is fine as is [although winnings could definitely be increased some in a lot of areas].  For playing a slow deck that takes ten minutes, it kind of is your fault for running a large/slow deck if your concern is speed, which is really how it comes off as a waste of time for you.  The way it seems is that you want the game to favor large and bulky decks that have slightly subpar win-rates.

In addition, the limited number of quests will hopefully be remedied with the latest 1.4 patch, in which Zanz is introducing some sort of NPC system.  And, hopefully, some quests to complement it.

[5] Upgraded cards are "second tier" cards that you can see in AI4 and AI5.  Upon completing all the quests, you will be given the option to trade in 1500 :electrum to upgrade a card in your collection.  These upgrades vary, but most of them are simple ones which are simple stat increases or cost decreases.  Other notable upgrades are of Toadfish > Pufferfish [Ability Change], Photon > Ray of Light [Given Ability], Phoenix > Minor Phoenix [Lowered Cost and Stats].

Offline Keolino

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Re: My Perspective https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50663.msg1091289#msg1091289
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2013, 05:35:36 am »
[1] If anything would take more time (like showing an opponents card longer, or something like that) it would get really frustrating when grinding, once you have learned more about the game. Maybe there can be an option for new players to slow the game down, if they want to.

[2] I have played about 500 AI3 games recently, and well, they draw scrap as often as i do, like only having 1 or 2 pillars, or only 1 or 2 non-pillars... But AI2 has quite more pillars in deck, because they play with a third element. (But putting that aside, there are deck lists for AI2 on this forum, they aren´t random. AI1 is random (and uses even more pillars))

But in magic, I use about 20-28 land cards in a normal balanced 60 cards deck, and in elements I use about 11-16 pillars in a normal balanced 30 card deck. (Therefore, it´s quite the same, about 40-50 % lands/pillars)

[3] As I said already, AI2 isn´t random, but they have a lot of different cards, therefor it gets difficult to obtain a card in their two spins (But hey, that´s changed right now! Elements 1.4 for the world!!!) The win chance of cards in AI 3 is pretty much 1 card every second game. (Depends a little on the opponents)

At the beginning, i wouldn´t recommend Arena, but AI 3. You win a lot of rares like Pharaos, Arctic Squids, Miracle, Weapons, and you learn a lot about usefull strategies. But I wouldn´t recommend sticking to AI 3 for to long either. And it gets you some normal cards and electrum, which will later prove useful.

[4] As it looks right now, the electrum you get out of AI 3 level opponents (about level 30-40 in the new system), will increase quite a bit in 1.4. But the loss of score and electrum matters at the beginning really much, but veterans can easily ignore it. An every veteran should consider newbies as well when saying that something is good or bad.

[5] Everything said already.

A lot will change in 1.4 anyway, so it isn´t any good to suggest changes right now.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 05:39:52 am by Keolino »
What's the speed of dark?

Offline dragonsdemesne

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Re: My Perspective https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50663.msg1091291#msg1091291
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2013, 06:05:40 am »
1) Would be nicer for newer players, but once you learn the cards, and there aren't too many, this becomes less of an issue.
2) There is an invisible mulligan that will deal you a new hand one time if you have no zero cost cards in hand.  You will not know if this mulligan took place.  (except if the new hand also has no zero cost cards)  Think of it like the old M:tG mulligan where if you had zero lands in your first hand, you could trade it in.  (not the retarded new mulligan rules they have now)  I suspect that you are not using enough quanta in your deck.  It will depend on the cost of the cards, obviously, but a good starting point is around 12-13 quanta cards in a 30 card deck, then adjust accordingly if you have too much/not enough.  I have one league deck this season that has just 8 pendulums out of 31 cards, and I've got another league deck that has more than 50% quanta cards, so it will depend on what's in your deck, but the 13/30 is a decent starting point.
3) I've never figured out the odds of winning cards, but I suspect you had a bit of bad luck there.  As for the oracle, you get 1 card per day from him, so you've been playing for 3 days so far.  The main reason to spin the oracle is the chance at winning nymphs, since you can't get them from spins.  Other than the occasional rare (one of the weapons, pharaoh, squid, or miracle) the oracle has nothing else of significant value.
4) Score is meaningless except for bragging rights and arena deck level.  You also get a lot more score/electrum for a win than a loss, so you have to lose a significant fraction of your games to go down.  With your win/loss ratio, this shouldn't be an issue at all.
5) See Drake's response on how to upgrade cards.  Most upgrades result in the card either becoming slightly cheaper to play, or slightly stronger; in these cases, the card becomes 'strictly better', a term as a Magic player you'll understand.  (tundra wolves vs eager cadet, for instance)  For example, a horned frog (3/3 for 2 :life) will become a giant frog (5/3 for 2: life) when upgraded.  The black hole spell will drop from 4 :gravity to 3 :gravity in cost when upgraded.  In some other cases, the card will become stronger, but with an increased cost; these are usually stronger, but are not strictly better.  For example, mind flayer (2/2 for 2 :water) will upgrade to ulitharid (3/4 for 3 :water) which is better, but not strictly better, and there are reasons you might use mind flayer even if you have ulitharid in your collection.  (I did it in championship league one season, for example, to get them out faster)  A few cards will also completely change when upgraded, and are basically a new card.  Chaos seed/Chaos Power, and Toadfish/Pufferfish are two examples of this.

Offline Keolino

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Re: My Perspective https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50663.msg1091293#msg1091293
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2013, 06:21:16 am »
Are all legendary members like that, forgeting about newbies???

1) You are repeating Drake_XIV
2) I have said something like that already.
3) Everything was said already. But for newbies, every card is valueable!
4) Like score is meaningless to newbies. It´s really important, hunting for the quests and trying to get your first rare weapon! And even than, it means a lot, getting the first few extra HP for your arena deck. THAT FEELING when you reach a new level as a newbie, or you fall one down because you lose one game against AI3...
Score may not matter for veterans that much anymore, but it´s really really really important at the beginning!!!
What's the speed of dark?

Offline dragonsdemesne

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Re: My Perspective https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50663.msg1091294#msg1091294
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2013, 06:24:43 am »
It never hurts to have multiple perspectives, particularly when many of the answers are subjective.

Offline majofa

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Re: My Perspective https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50663.msg1091295#msg1091295
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2013, 07:02:55 am »
@Drake : Ai2 decks aren't random.

Offline Marsu

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Re: My Perspective https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50663.msg1091310#msg1091310
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2013, 10:05:24 am »
1) An acceptable suggestion, but not really needed. The time is more than long enough once you are a bit experienced.

2) A good suggestion per se. There is a one-time auto mulligan if you draw zero zero-cost cards. I would also prefer the option to mulligan whenever I want, but we had that topic about 20 times already: It's not worth the effort. It delays every PvP games for minutes. By the way, if you are "mana" screwed every fourth game, your deck contains too few Pillars.

3) The spin reward is actually huge already. It is just an addition to the electrum and score you win anyway. If you "need" the cards is irrelevant, you can sell them, so cards you don't need are great to get too.

4) What? If losses are not slightly (!) punished, a game is no fun.

5) Once you finish the quests, you'll see.

All in all, some suggestions of yours were valid (Graveyard, display played cards longer, Mulligan) and some were less so (Everything regarding the reward system). Get to know this game a bit more and you will change your opinion regarding most points yourself. :)


Offline Drake_XIV

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Re: My Perspective https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50663.msg1091334#msg1091334
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2013, 03:55:36 pm »
@Drake : Ai2 decks aren't random.

Huh?  I thought they were.  Well, that's an error on my part.  Is there a thread with the compiled list of all AI2 decks?

Offline Marsu

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Re: My Perspective https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50663.msg1091335#msg1091335
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2013, 03:57:51 pm »

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Re: My Perspective https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50663.msg1091414#msg1091414
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2013, 11:23:53 pm »
For points 3) & 4), as you progress and improve your play style and deck, your money flow will steadily increase.

Here's my recommendation for a play path. You may know some or all of this, but I'll give the advice anyways.

Once you're able to defeat AI3 without effort, it's time to move your grinding to PvP1 and the Bronze Level Arena:

PvP1 will triple or quadruple your income, and once you have the amounts of electrum you can get from that you can buy whatever you want... except rare cards. Remember that players are smarter than AI and can foresee your moves, and they use strategies you haven't seen.

Bronze Level Arena will give you more rares. After winning a certain number of games you get a special spin that gives you a chance to win any rare from weapons to shards. Based on level you build your own decks and can play against decks built by other players in the arena. It's a kind of AI controlled PvP.
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