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Offline darkrobeTopic starter

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Re: Charon's Bribe | Charon's Bribe https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32914.msg416797#msg416797
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2011, 02:30:57 am »
anything i missed in my argument?

Offline furballdn

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Re: Charon's Bribe | Charon's Bribe https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32914.msg416812#msg416812
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2011, 03:30:44 am »
Yup. OP. Killing someone's creatures and they paying again? OP.
Im sorry but are you arguing that this card is OP because it kills an opponents creature? because it doesnt. it just adds quanta drain to creature death if you spend some  :death. which in my opinion goes pretty well with deaths theme.

as far as the quanta drain being op, how about black hole: only costs 3  :gravity and 36 quanta is drained and you get healed for every one of those quanta.

I dont think this card is OP. This card does not kill creatures, it does not drain quanta every turn (devourers), it does not heal you (black hole), it does not shuffle you quanta every turn (discord). It can be completely blocked by sanctuary (which i think fits in nicely with the death vs light them). and death currently has no insta kill cards (think fire lance, lightning, or shockwave), so it would not be OP in a mono deck. Creatures with no cost [ROL, Malignant cells, sparks, just to name a few] are completely unaffected by this card.

This card is very strong in the following situations:
1. you have played it early and you can kill the first creature the opponent plays (if it is not one of the no cost creatures mentioned above). you will slow down both their draw and their ability to play cards. (note that this will be difficult to achieve because you will need the quanta to play both charon's bribe and an attack spell [which will probably not be a death card] within the first turn or two)
2. you opponent is playing high cost creatures and you have something to kill multiple of them with. for example multiple lightnings or an owl eye. (in which case your opponent will adjust their play style to take into account that they may be forced to pay extra quanta)
3. you opponent is playing a rush of alot of cheap 3 hp creatures and you play firestorm, in which case you will drain them of alot of quanta or fill their hand with cards. and by alot i mean like, 12 giant frogs at 2  :life apiece which would mean that I drain from you 24  :life quanta. (lol, i laughed just thinking about this. I want this in the game just to be able to pull this off :D) at most you will be delaying them like 2 turns or so before they can start playing creatures again. (note that most times i use firestorm its going to be when there are like 7 creatures on the field, not 12, so the average quanta drain isnt going to be like 24 everytime)
You have misunderstood me. I am not saying it is OP for killing creatures, I'm saying it's OP for making opponent's pay twice for a creature you will kill while this is in play. Black hole steals 36 quanta, but it's one use. As long as you have one of these on the field, the effect is permanent. Add in more than one, and the effect surely adds up. Of course this wouldn't be useful in a mono deck, but paired up with owl's eye, lightning, or a heavy control deck, this basically has the ability to cut your opponent's quanta count in half when they're paying double for every creature you kill. It sucks when you lose a 5 :fire lava golem due to a 2 :aether lightning, but 10 :fire? Instantly doubling? That is pretty overpowered. You could make it that instead of making the opponent paying the price again, make it pay 1-2 quanta of the element of the creature you just killed.

Offline darkrobeTopic starter

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Re: Charon's Bribe | Charon's Bribe https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32914.msg416824#msg416824
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2011, 04:13:39 am »
You have misunderstood me. I am not saying it is OP for killing creatures, I'm saying it's OP for making opponent's pay twice for a creature you will kill while this is in play. Black hole steals 36 quanta, but it's one use. As long as you have one of these on the field, the effect is permanent. Add in more than one, and the effect surely adds up. Of course this wouldn't be useful in a mono deck, but paired up with owl's eye, lightning, or a heavy control deck, this basically has the ability to cut your opponent's quanta count in half when they're paying double for every creature you kill. It sucks when you lose a 5 :fire lava golem due to a 2 :aether lightning, but 10 :fire? Instantly doubling? That is pretty overpowered. You could make it that instead of making the opponent paying the price again, make it pay 1-2 quanta of the element of the creature you just killed.
Ah, i missunderstood. but i still disagree. in your example you are losing a  5 :fire lava golem because of a 2  :aether spell and then you are losing 5  :fire quanta because of a  4 :death permanent triggered  by said spell. yes it will add up. but no one has infinte lightning. and this wont shut down your game, because its not a continuous drain like devourers. it will just delay your play. if you have no creatures on the field to kill you wont be left without quanta to play permanents and pc.

on the flip side i believe your suggestion of a 1-2 quanta of each creatures element would be more powerful than the card as it is. because you are adding drain to creatures that currently are unnaffected by this card, such as photons. lets look at a fire rush. they generally play a couple photons [or gnome riders], lets assume it is 3 at the beginning. You play CB. they immolate one of their photons and play a lava destroyor. you play firestorm.

under the current scenario. the player loses 5  :fire quanta because of the destroyer death (or depending on how much quanta, less than that and relic in the hand). under the scenario you suggested the player would lose 2  :light for the immolated photon (which they dont have resulting in a relic), and then 4  :light and 2  :fire  for the remaining two photons and destroyer killed by the firestorm (probably resulting in 2 to 3 more relics in the hand).

so in comparison: 5 :fire or <5  :fire + 1 relic versus:light +  2 :fire or slightly less drain and 2-3 relics in the hand.

(side note: it must be tired, im feeling really combative at the moment)

Offline Naesala

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Re: Charon's Bribe | Charon's Bribe https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32914.msg416825#msg416825
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2011, 04:16:34 am »
You may only get to use black hole once...unless you have a nymph and rcycle the effect.

Anyways, so long as this card doesnt stack the effect, i dont find it overpowered. As for draining the quanta constantly, Pestal is pretty bad about that. Darkrobe makes perfectly reasonable arguments as to when the card would be used and why it isnt overpowered.
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Offline darkrobeTopic starter

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Re: Charon's Bribe | Charon's Bribe https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32914.msg416826#msg416826
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2011, 04:17:40 am »
Im waiting on the results of the poll to see what the community as a whole thinks of the card and whether it is op. but if it did turn out that the community thought it was OP, I would probably change either the % of the creature cost that you pay, or i would limit the number of turns it was in play. (more likely 2nd). I dont think i would make it 1-2 per creature regardless of creature cost.

Offline TheManuz

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R: Charon's Bribe | Charon's Bribe https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32914.msg416896#msg416896
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2011, 08:33:28 am »
I thought more about it, and i think it's ok and it shouln't stack.
It's terribly annoying, but aren't all denial cards annoying?

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Re: Charon's Bribe | Charon's Bribe https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32914.msg417011#msg417011
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2011, 03:56:14 pm »
To have some use of multi charon's bride in game you can make the relic effect stackable but not the quanta drain.

Offline Chapuz

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Re: Charon's Bribe | Charon's Bribe https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32914.msg417034#msg417034
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2011, 05:09:49 pm »
Maybe increase it's cost to 5|4, but it's quite perfect as it is now. Considering it's a permanent and it's effect is canceled with a single explotion / steal / pulvy / BE, it may be fine like this. It's highly original and powerfull, not mentioning there will be more powerfull cards in the game.

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Offline darkrobeTopic starter

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Re: Charon's Bribe | Charon's Bribe https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32914.msg417162#msg417162
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2011, 11:43:40 pm »
so it seems pretty obvious from the poll that the majority of people think this card is pretty balanced as is. Im throwing up a new poll. you can let me know if you think it is ready for the crucible.

Offline darkrobeTopic starter

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Re: Charon's Bribe | Charon's Bribe https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32914.msg417506#msg417506
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2011, 07:09:14 pm »
okay. dont seem to be many people arguing against it being ready for the crucible at least. going to toss it in. Please show some support and vote for it.

Offline Chapuz

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Re: Charon's Bribe | Charon's Bribe https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32914.msg417547#msg417547
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2011, 08:34:06 pm »
It's ready for being a ingame card xD
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Re: Charon's Bribe | Charon's Bribe https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32914.msg417643#msg417643
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2011, 11:00:13 pm »
Found an interesting loophole. What if the opponent kills his/her own creature during his/her turn, when the hand has 8 cards?
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