Fire Stall Unupped [No Shards] [Half-Blood]

[Chapuz]

just a question cause im a noob. Whats stall?

Stall is when you make long games just because you kill all (or almost all) the oponent's creatures and permanents with your cards and spells. Then, with not much attaking creatures, finish killing your oponent.
Fire stall is unluckly a very common deck, because fire has lots of creature control (fire bolts, rain of fire, rage potion) and permanent control (explotions). And it has unuppes phoenixes (almost indestructable) to kill the oponent.

NOTE: Everyone hates firestalls because they are HIGHLY UNORIGINAL and make the games boring. I wouldn't recommend anyone make a fire stall to play it on PVP or putting it in the arena. It's the main reason because of fire is getting nerfed.

[RootRanger]

OK, let me clear some things up (mostly directed at Chapuz).

1.) Firestalls mostly don't use creatures. One of the main reasons to use Firestall is that all of the opponent's creature control becomes useless or much less useful than intended. For example, if your opponent uses Freezes, they become useless cards if you are using Firestall, and you can have a card advantage. If you add creatures to Firestall, their CC becomes useful again and you no longer have as much of a card advantage.

2.) I'm not sure what you mean when you say Firestall is the main reason Fire is being nerfed. Sanc Firestall has actually been buffed since entering the game because many of its counters were nerfed.

3.) People should be encouraged to use overpowered decks such as Firestall. Using Firestall actually weakens its strength in the metagame because more people will prepare counters to it. If more people stop using Firestall, it becomes stronger because less people prepare for it. The worst part is that it will be even less likely to be nerfed because fewer people will be using it.

Use overpowered decks!!!

Sorry for spamming your thread, Phaser, but someone had to post this.

[Chapuz]

OK, let me clear some things up (mostly directed at Chapuz).

1.) Firestalls mostly don't use creatures. One of the main reasons to use Firestall is that all of the opponent's creature control becomes useless or much less useful than intended. For example, if your opponent uses Freezes, they become useless cards if you are using Firestall, and you can have a card advantage. If you add creatures to Firestall, their CC becomes useful again and you no longer have as much of a card advantage.

2.) I'm not sure what you mean when you say Firestall is the main reason Fire is being nerfed. Sanc Firestall has actually been buffed since entering the game because many of its counters were nerfed.

3.) People should be encouraged to use overpowered decks such as Firestall. Using Firestall actually weakens its strength in the metagame because more people will prepare counters to it. If more people stop using Firestall, it becomes stronger because less people prepare for it. The worst part is that it will be even less likely to be nerfed because fewer people will be using it.

Use overpowered decks!!!

Sorry for spamming your thread, Phaser, but someone had to post this.

So you are saying that if there is more people using a deck, time later there will be less people using it?
The only problem is that facing the same classic 5 decks the 50% of the games makes EtG less funny. In my opinion, the deckbuilding and games against original decks is what mekes this game good.

[ZephyrPhantom]

OK, let me clear some things up (mostly directed at Chapuz).

1.) Firestalls mostly don't use creatures. One of the main reasons to use Firestall is that all of the opponent's creature control becomes useless or much less useful than intended. For example, if your opponent uses Freezes, they become useless cards if you are using Firestall, and you can have a card advantage. If you add creatures to Firestall, their CC becomes useful again and you no longer have as much of a card advantage.

2.) I'm not sure what you mean when you say Firestall is the main reason Fire is being nerfed. Sanc Firestall has actually been buffed since entering the game because many of its counters were nerfed.
How has Firestall been buffed, when there's now a quanta cap and more Fire cards are now less cost-efficient?
Also, I've seen very few (if any) recent nerfs to any non-fire cards, except for the Shards.
3.) People should be encouraged to use overpowered decks such as Firestall. Using Firestall actually weakens its strength in the metagame because more people will prepare counters to it. If more people stop using Firestall, it becomes stronger because less people prepare for it. The worst part is that it will be even less likely to be nerfed because fewer people will be using it.

Use overpowered decks!!!

Sorry for spamming your thread, Phaser, but someone had to post this.

And on the flipside, using overpowered decks may cause inexperienced newbies to ragequit and result in more people complaining to nerf cards in Firestall, not to mention people are less likely to make their own original decks in favor of being 'forced' to build counters to win, which overall results in a stiffer metagame. Zanz's nerfs to Firestall then encourage people to find a new OP deck, and the cycle starts all over.
It works, but whatever happened to the wonderful method of communication that was the forums, or expanding/'completing' and buffing other elements?
Just my 2 cents.

[Phaser]

Most Firestalls have 40 cards but this one is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat.
Back then false god rainbows were good then sundial was nerfed. Then the Firestall was nerfed. Now the OP deck is now Instosis because of a buff. I suspect that Mitosis\SoR will get nerfed. After that, there will be no OP decks.

just a question cause im a noob. Whats stall?

Stall is when you make long games just because you kill all (or almost all) the oponent's creatures and permanents with your cards and spells. Then, with not much attaking creatures, finish killing your oponent.
Fire stall is unluckly a very common deck, because fire has lots of creature control (fire bolts, rain of fire, rage potion) and permanent control (explotions). And it has unuppes phoenixes (almost indestructable) to kill the oponent.

NOTE: Everyone hates firestalls because they are HIGHLY UNORIGINAL and make the games boring. I wouldn't recommend anyone make a fire stall to play it on PVP or putting it in the arena. It's the main reason because of fire is getting nerfed.

Actually I don't play Firestall against PvP because it's unfair for newbs to get frustrated and I only put firestall in arena once(I was desperate, okay?), got rich, and took it down. Besides that, I only use this to farm Bronze and Ai4.

[Aves]

If it works, it works. Use it. All popularized OP decks were once original. There's nothing wrong, imho, in using such a deck- I refuse to believe that any deck can be broken to a degree that it cannot be countered after analysis by the community. If I played PvP on a regular basis, I would totally use firestall. And I'd probably still get crushed with it a good amount of the time.

Now... back on topic... sorta.

What are the reasons for the differences between your Bronze version and current version, especially with the crusader and RoF/Rage pots?
If it works on HBs, do you think it would work on Silver? Win Rate would probably take a dive, but it seems plausible.

[furballdn]

just a question cause im a noob. Whats stall?

Mostly a deck that focuses on decking your opponent out through control and whatnot.

[Chapuz]

just a question cause im a noob. Whats stall?

Mostly a deck that focuses on decking your opponent out through control and whatnot.

I am in favour of people who make original ragequit decks. Ususlly thay have inundation, alphatoxyn, antimatters and that stuff. There are SO MANY good cards and sinergies to make ragequit decks that the simple firestall is just... not original.

[Phaser]

If it works, it works. Use it. All popularized OP decks were once original. There's nothing wrong, imho, in using such a deck- I refuse to believe that any deck can be broken to a degree that it cannot be countered after analysis by the community. If I played PvP on a regular basis, I would totally use firestall. And I'd probably still get crushed with it a good amount of the time.

Now... back on topic... sorta.

What are the reasons for the differences between your Bronze version and current version, especially with the crusader and RoF/Rage pots?
If it works on HBs, do you think it would work on Silver? Win Rate would probably take a dive, but it seems plausible.

You might need the deck half uppped and tweaked a little to farm silver and profit but I guess it could still work unnupped.
For bronze, there's a lot more dangers like more permanents or PC. Plus some decks pack a lot of critters and since mono aether makes up the majority of Bronze so fire shield is needed more quickly and more deflags help with shields.

[RootRanger]

So you are saying that if there is more people using a deck, time later there will be less people using it?

No, that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that if more people are using Firestall, then it is less overpowered. Power is only one of the multiple variables that determines a deck's frequency in the metagame.

The only problem is that facing the same classic 5 decks the 50% of the games makes EtG less funny. In my opinion, the deckbuilding and games against original decks is what mekes this game good.

If you face the same 5 decks 50% of the time, you could try creating decks that mostly work effectively against the 5 decks you often see. This will overall improve your chances of winning. While seeing many different decks is fun, your solution punishes those that follow your anti-firestall guidelines while rewarding those that do not follow your anti-firestall guidelines. If every player uses the same set of rules, the game will involve more skill instead of involving whether or not players choose to follow the suggestions of others.

And on the flipside, using overpowered decks may cause inexperienced newbies to ragequit and result in more people complaining to nerf cards in Firestall,

Well, Firestall should be nerfed. It is overpowered, and nerfing Firestall improves the metagame. More complaints results in a larger chance for Firestall to be nerfed.

not to mention people are less likely to make their own original decks in favor of being 'forced' to build counters to win, which overall results in a stiffer metagame.

As I said to Chapuz, his suggested solution is not the right answer.

While seeing many different decks is fun, your solution punishes those that follow your anti-firestall guidelines while rewarding those that do not follow your anti-firestall guidelines. If every player uses the same set of rules, the game will involve more skill instead of involving whether or not players choose to follow the suggestions of others.

Nerfing Firestall, however, will create an improved metagame while keeping as much skill in Elements as before.

How has Firestall been buffed, when there's now a quanta cap and more Fire cards are now less cost-efficient?
Also, I've seen very few (if any) recent nerfs to any non-fire cards, except for the Shards.

The quanta cap and the Deflag nerf have very small impacts on Firestall. Many of Firestall's counters, however, have been nerfed. Phoenix used to be one of the strongest answers to Firestall that was also effective against other decks, but now it is not as effective against Firestall as it was before. The quanta cap hurt other Firestall counters, such as Bone Bolt with Fractal Dragons and Mono Darkness/Fire/Water Rushes with Bolts.

Zanz's nerfs to Firestall then encourage people to find a new OP deck, and the cycle starts all over.

With the right nerfs to Firestall and other imbalanced cards/decks, nothing will be overpowered. There will still be strong decks, but nothing will
centralize the metagame as much anymore. There will also be no two-deck combos that can together defeat almost the entire game.

It works, but whatever happened to the wonderful method of communication that was the forums, or expanding/'completing' and buffing other elements?
Just my 2 cents.

I'm not sure what you mean here. People still communicate on the forums. As for "expanding/completing" weaker Elements, what else is there to be done? I've linked The Metagame (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30797.0.html) to zanz, and I believe he had already read it or at least looked at it previously.

Back then false god rainbows were good then sundial was nerfed.

Sundial was overpowered in PvP.

Then the Firestall was nerfed.

No, it wasn't, as I've already explained.

Now the OP deck is now Instosis because of a buff. I suspect that Mitosis\SoR will get nerfed.

Perhaps, but there are cards that are more OP. Keep in mind that PvP should be used for card balance.

After that, there will be no OP decks.

No. There are plenty of OP cards and decks currently. I would start by reading The Metagame. (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30797.0.html)

I am in favour of people who make original ragequit decks. Ususlly thay have inundation, alphatoxyn, antimatters and that stuff. There are SO MANY good cards and sinergies to make ragequit decks that the simple firestall is just... not original.

Games are won by deck advantages, not originality. Firestall is usually a better option than flooding/aflatoxin/antimatter stalls.

[ZephyrPhantom]

@RootRanger
Points noted. I hadn't considered how phoenix's nerf had affected it's use in Firestall counters and I hadn't considered Bonebolt either.
As for this last remark:

It works, but whatever happened to the wonderful method of communication that was the forums, or expanding/'completing' and buffing other elements?
Just my 2 cents.

I'm not sure what you mean here. People still communicate on the forums. As for "expanding/completing" weaker Elements, what else is there to be done? I've linked The Metagame (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30797.0.html) to zanz, and I believe he had already read it or at least looked at it previously.

This was more of a side comment based on how we've already discussed finer points of the metagame and figured out many changes to help improve it but Zanz seems to be heading in a different direction with recent cards that don't really help other Elements towards completion with some feeling inherently situational, flawed, or broken. Just my (offtopic) notes on what seems to be changing and what isn't.

[Chapuz]

Does anyone in the forums talk with Zanz to see how he thinks about the game updates? It seems he thinks about the cards in other way, as "what will everyone do with this card in the game? And what will they do a time later?"