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Offline KeepsTopic starter

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Why we need more cards in this game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49568.msg1075609#msg1075609
« on: May 30, 2013, 04:37:11 am »
I see 'cultural' or 'mentalities' that need addressed:
For the arguments with how many zanz can or will implement, let me say this:

I know of the development issues:  We have zanz whom is the sole developer and this is only a portfolio project that he only updates once and a while.  It's coded in action script and flash both of which are limited.  A couple years I offered my coding experience, database experience, AI development experience, and musical talents to zanz, all of which he dismissed out of hand. 

However, that was a couple of years ago.

Zanz will no longer need this as a portfolio project:  He should have been working now for a while now and that experience is worth more than this portfolio project as is.  In addition, it is no longer showing value of current technologies.  Flash and Action Script are seriously outdated.  If you aren't working with HTML5, Javascript, C#, Java, Air, or one of the mobile device SDKs, you out of date.  Unless you are an embedded C kind of guy.  He tossed this up on Kong so he makes enough money to pay for the server load.  At that is that. 

Elements only has two futures:  1 to die the slow death; which this community has spoken of at times, many times, yet this community drives to keep this product alive because they love it.  2 to mature and grow; to become the next big thing.  I know Xeno and the likes are close to Zanz; if zanz cares about this community or this product at all.  Whatever the community demands he will have to conform with or finally admit to abandoning this product.  If zanz is smart and we can make a convincing argument.  By growing this to a mature level of complexity; A mature CCG/TCG of this type, requires 4 to 5 hundred cards as the core set; this could have the next big money making thing.  Instead of a portfolio project, he could launch his own game company.  He could totally crowd source this through kick starter and reference this as his base prototype.  I see driving the community to push, something like, the community is demanding a 200% increase in cards and by the way they have you totally backuped with all the BA style requirements, launch this in kick starter and have your own company is the best argument I can make.

Would anyone with more clout then me like to back that up.  Anyone else out there with real world dev or business experience like to make the pitch to zanz with me?

As far as submitting.  I had two goals, the first is philosophical, in which putting down 130 cards in a semi-tangible form is needed so people can understand the degrees of complexity and pushing through one card at a time is foolish at best if not completely asinine at this stage.

Based on that, a card idea that as an individual seems cool to others, they are free to submit to the crucible on my behalf or tweaked to their own liking.   

Quote
You are not going to get much support from this community to push for a faster update pace or radical changes, mainly because people who are not satisfied the way the game works do not tend to continue playing.

True enough, but how that comes about is what's important.
Are you saying, the support does not exist, because the community by in large is oblivious to the number of people who try and leave, the number of people turned away because of the xenophobic nature of the community against change and it's purely an organic social structure?  If so, than making the community aware that there could be a better way, and driving for change maybe worth while.
OR
Are you saying, the support does not exist, because the community is aware of it's refusal to change and largely people have made the conscious choice that it likes the way things are, and so accepts the responsibility if it dooms itself and/or the game by pushing most people away; because, it's an inorganic social structure derived from our own selfishness.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 04:50:24 am by Drake_XIV »

Offline Drake_XIV

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Re: Why we need more cards in this game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49568.msg1075613#msg1075613
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2013, 04:57:26 am »
Use this thread to further discuss stances, issues, and whatnot regarding the pace of card implementation and activity.  Refrain from returning the conversation to the previous thread, which should only be for balance, or even allowing this thread to stray off-topic.

Offline Jyiber

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Re: Why we need more cards in this game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49568.msg1075624#msg1075624
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2013, 06:08:08 am »
Both arguments against change apply to different kinds of people, both of which combined form the majority of the presence in the CI&A. You either have people who don't like change, or people who don't want to work together to make an idea.

There are a few rare people who are good for idea help, and you know who you are. Thank you for helping everyone in the best way you can... either through speculation and constructive criticism, or selfless helping to evolve ideas.

I feel like Zanz misses awesome card ideas that are drowned in vast pool of countless individual ideas. Maybe people should team up more and bounce thoughts off each other to form more refined ideas. Teamwork yields better results.

And then at the end of the day, even if there was suddenly a community wide push for new game changes, there's the question of how much work Zanz can handle, or wants to do.

This thread I will follow because it's already a question I've had, and I wonder how often others think about it.
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Offline regen2k9

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Re: We need more cards in this game, seriously!!! A lot more. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49568.msg1075635#msg1075635
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2013, 07:55:17 am »
You are not going to get much support from this community to push for a faster update pace or radical changes, mainly because people who are not satisfied the way the game works do not tend to continue playing.

True, but I think that's all the more reason to push for more updates, if possible.  That way, we can have higher retention...and hey, even the people who are satisfied may still want to see the game improve.  :)

I actually agree with Keeps's main stance about the game (aside from the bulk single-user card set proposal), and although Zanz does see elements as a personal project, we should take every effort possible to see if it's possible to have faster pace development for the game (if such efforts have not been exhausted already).

Z brings up some of the biggest obstacles, chief among them, the money-related issues.  In truth, any dev team would need to work for free as a labor of love at first.  As for ads, Facebook might be enough for a start.  You only pay for the amount of hits you receive, and you can set a budget so that after a certain amount is reached, advertisements stop appearing for that day/month.  We could use community donations (and possibly revenue from in-game donations and/or Ads during game loading, etc.) to pay for the beginning Facebook ads.

At the end of the day though, we can sit around and say it won't work, or try everything in our power to prevent the decline of elements.  If we hit a wall, if Zanz doesn't want to follow this direction, or if we exhaust all of our options, then we can sit back and just enjoy what we have for however long it lasts, but while we're still able to, I say we push to advance.

Additionally, Keeps, I think it would interest you to read this (a similar thread from a year ago):http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,43506.msg1000375.html#msg1000375

I would highly suggest anyone interested in this topic to give it a read as well.
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Offline Marsu

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Re: We need more cards in this game, seriously!!! A lot more. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49568.msg1075654#msg1075654
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2013, 11:52:20 am »
I just can't agree with your most basic premise: This game won't die slowly if we only get two small patches a year.

I have no clue about computer stuff and am barely interested, but I do know how hard it is to balance a game like Elements is balanced. This is why I oppose a change that even comes close to the one you suggested.

However, I also can not understand why Zanz doesn't do the updates that are no work for him at all. Reform CI&A a bit (done by the community), let 2 cards per month be voted for by the community (not too democratic, because noobs), add them to the game. Adding a card with no totally new mechanic can't be much work. This would indeed make Elements even greater.

Offline KeepsTopic starter

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Re: Why we need more cards in this game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49568.msg1075732#msg1075732
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2013, 07:14:56 pm »
Quote
However, I also can not understand why Zanz doesn't do the updates that are no work for him at all. Reform CI&A a bit (done by the community), let 2 cards per month be voted for by the community (not too democratic, because noobs), add them to the game. Adding a card with no totally new mechanic can't be much work. This would indeed make Elements even greater.

You are coming from the perspective that Zanz cares about the game as much as you do. 

I repeat this was a portfolio project.  Elements the Game was never meant to stay around for any longer than zanz needed it to site experience! 
Elements was just a way to a job or better pay.   I'm not saying he doesn't appreciate the community.  He didn't want to shut it down because that would just upset people and be a dick move.  So he set it up on Kong , it pays the bills of running the application, and zanz comes around and puts out a couple cards once a year.

This is why I argue, we appeal to zanzs' practical side.  Pitch this as a stepping stone, but not just to a better job, but as a path to his own company.

Quote
I just can't agree with your most basic premise: This game won't die slowly if we only get two small patches a year.
Marsu, I'm going to first try to appeal to experience you may or may not have had to save time rather than going through all the social structure and game sociology.  Have you been apart of many gaming about a specific game communities?  How long for?  If you have, can you see how the game will slowly die till it becomes the smallest of niche communities in which become completely xenophobic and die off from lack of new blood?  If you can not or simply do not have the experiences to draw on, I'll go into the sociological arguments, but that's a massive post.

Quote
At the end of the day though, we can sit around and say it won't work, or try everything in our power to prevent the decline of elements.  If we hit a wall, if Zanz doesn't want to follow this direction, or if we exhaust all of our options, then we can sit back and just enjoy what we have for however long it lasts, but while we're still able to, I say we push to advance.

THIS!!!

Quote
Additionally, Keeps, I think it would interest you to read this (a similar thread from a year ago):http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,43506.msg1000375.html#msg1000375

I remember that, that was unfolding around the time I quit the game last time, the game was also in a really broken state (Which B.T.W. shows the 'Elements' likes to put out a few really small number of well balanced card updates is complete B.S.)

So I guess the next question, is does anyone have oh 10 hours or so a week for a couple of weeks to put together a business proposal for Zanz with me?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 07:17:51 pm by Keeps »

Offline KeepsTopic starter

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Re: Why we need more cards in this game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49568.msg1076284#msg1076284
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2013, 07:36:15 pm »
Well, I guess no one...  Such a shame.

Offline eaglgenes101

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Re: Why we need more cards in this game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49568.msg1076335#msg1076335
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2013, 09:38:40 pm »
Look, this game may look small, but it's well balanced compared to MTG or yu-gi-oh (though poor antlion is still overshadowed after a number of updates). The community has come to like the feel of the game.
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Offline KeepsTopic starter

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Re: Why we need more cards in this game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49568.msg1076395#msg1076395
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2013, 11:21:48 pm »
I don't know the state of MtG or Yu-gi-oh today.  I know MtG around 4th ed. was very solid (although a few people were confused by some of the antiquated card terminologies.)  However, I got out around after Ice Age.  (I'm an old man ;))  Yu-gi-oh was after my time, but if the game was anything like what the show predicted, I could see how that game would suck.  I remember later versions of Doom Trooper and Rage as well as early versions of Jyhad (Vampire) were fairly well balanced games too of this type; although not as commercially successful.

However, the 'balance' of this game that everyone talks...  I think most are in self denial.
Only a couple of deck types rule PVP1 (Mono Life Rush/Mono Aether/Mono Fire Stall/Mono Death Rush/Graboid Rush) and it's been that way for a long time.
As for PVP2, it's all about the initial draw that effects the initial TTK rate, decks that product 4 to 5 TTW run all over PVP2 except against other decks that have 4 to 5 TTW.

To make this point even clearer, everyone in these forums complains about the RNG, if this was a well balanced game and decent complexity the RNG should have almost no effect on the outcome of a game, except for  :entropy because it relies on the RNG.

However,
Instead it's a simple game of limited to 3 primary game mechanics Rush/Denial/Stall.  In which most people admittedly do not play with PVP much, because they are too busy grinding against a stupid AI that has a bunch of bonuses going for it with the best WR/Efficiency someone came up with.

But seriously, we've all had this conversation hundreds of times among ourselves in the forums with different people taking different sides at different times.  However, if the community just thought for a minute...  you would realize this is like the 'new bar scenerio.'

You see, when people first hear about someone wanting to build a new bar.  The people go in the town say 'We don't need a new bar.'  The bar owner and his best bar buddies fight against it at the city council.  We already have enough bars in the town, Sam's is just fine!, What message do you want to send to the kids?, We should make sure any bar is 1000 feet from any public playground or school., etc.  Eventually, the new bar gets opened one way or another.  Some of the people from the old bar go over and check it out.  The bar tenders are real nice, they have a great selection of beers, a dance floor, Karoke on Wed., live music Thursday through Saturday., free wing Tuesdays, and Monday happy hours, the bar food is great, and they are cheaper to boot.  The only problem is it's missing something, everyone else.  You have a good time but you head back to Sam's.  Sure Sam is a bit of a jerk, they only got bud light on tap, their food is only edible after 10 beers, but they got your buds and an atmosphere you know.  That other place with their shiny signs, who's going to make a joke seizures anymore?   Other people try it, but find it's missing that something too.  Meanwhile, a bunch of other people move into town, become 21, etc...  and they like the new bar.  The new bar becomes the next big thing.  Sam's on the other hand, keeps it's steady clients for a while; however, Carle, had to move to a new job.  Pete, he died in a car accident.  Fred ended up having twins and never getting out often.  Suddenly, you find yourself not going to Sam's as much anymore either.  It's starting to miss that something.  Eventually, Sam's goes down in flames, a kitchen fire and a big collection of insurance money or something like that.  But Sam doesn't rebuild Sam's.  He's onto something new, tired of the babysitting job.  The new place, it's become the old place, but your still not familiar with it, instead, you might as well stay in, perhaps look at some pictures of cats. 

The real shame, is the owner of that new bar, he talked to Sam first, thought Sam might want to expand his bar and fix it up, was willing to work with Sam.  But, Sam brushed it off, listening to his existing clients saying 'tell that guy to get lost, your place is great.' 
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 11:30:45 pm by Keeps »

Offline Marsu

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Re: Why we need more cards in this game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49568.msg1076423#msg1076423
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2013, 01:12:28 am »
Only a couple of deck types rule PVP1 (Mono Life Rush/Mono Aether/Mono Fire Stall/Mono Death Rush/Graboid Rush) and it's been that way for a long time.

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Re: Why we need more cards in this game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49568.msg1076441#msg1076441
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2013, 02:21:31 am »
Your scenario presumes that the "new" elements is going to be better in every conceivable way except for atmosphere. Let me illustrate, using your Bar scenario, why some of your suggestions are why we aren't exactly in.

Yeah sure, the new bar has Karaoke. But guess what? Everyone in town hates karaoke. They hate the way it lacks skill, it isn't refined. Meanwhile, Sam's may only have a pool table, but the regulars have devised dozens, if not hundreds of special ways to play pool already, and have a big poster up on the wal full of types of games.

Oh and that new bar? It isn't going to be cheaper than Sam's. It's going to cost a lot to get there, and someone in town is going to have to pay with no guarantee that it'll turn out well. New bar opens, Sam's is forced closed, and the new bar bankrupts itself. And everyone moves out of town.

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Re: Why we need more cards in this game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49568.msg1076452#msg1076452
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2013, 03:03:51 am »
[My 2 :electrum] : Yes, we all would like to see the game expand, but not at the expense of one element or another totally dominating in every situation. As far as I understand many players worry about Power Creep. I don't completely understand exactly what that means. We have many designers, balancers and people willing to comment on any Card Ideas posted throughout CI&A section of the forum. As other have said Zanz is in total control of the pace at which the game will evolve. All we can do is continue to make attempts a new and exciting mechanics for him to look at. I don't know about anyone else, but I enjoy designing cards just for the purpose of designing cards. Expecting any of them to be added to game would be causing myself to have a false hope, and it would remove any enjoyment of designing. [/My 2 :electrum]
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