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Offline OldTreesTopic starter

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Re: Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg392184#msg392184
« Reply #60 on: September 11, 2011, 03:52:53 pm »
Thank Malebolgia

Offensive Methods
All have ", Deckout (the free method)" implied but there is no deckout accelerating tools yet.
:aetherMelee (2 variants Phase Dragon or Phase Recluse)
Swarm (1.5 variants Fractal+Spark or Fractal+Phase Recluse)
:airMelee (3 variants Wyrms, Dragons or Animated Owl's Eyes. Skyblitz Augments)
:darknessMelee (2 variants Dragons or Gargoyles. Eclipses Augments)
Spell (1 variant Drain Life)
:deathMelee (5 variants Dragons, Mummys, Vultures or Recluses)
Poison (2 variants Poison or Arsenic)
:earthMelee (2 variants Shriekers or Dragons)
:entropyMelee (2 variants Abominations or Dragons. Chaos Power Augments)
:fireMelee (4 variants Phoenixes, Dragons, Fire spirits or Farhenheit)
Spell (1 variant Fire Lances)
:gravityMelee (3 variants Chargers, Dragons or Acceleration)
:lifeMelee (3 variants Frogs, Cockatrices or Dragons. Adrenaline Augments)
Swarm (1 variant Mitosis. Adrenaline augments)
Poison (1 variant Forest Scorpion. Adrenaline augments)
:lightMelee (3 variants Dragons, Archangels or Crusader. Blessing Augments)
:timeMelee (2 variants Dragons or Ghosts)
Swarm (2 variants Pharaoh or Scarabs)
:waterMelee (3 variants Abyss Crawlers, Dragons or ToadFishes|Pufferfishes)
Spell (1 variant Ice Bolt)
Poison (1 variant Pufferfish)
I did not include any weapon without scaling damage or Animate Weapon in element. If you disagree then there would be +1 variant for melee.
Defensive Tools
 :aether :air :darkness :death :earth :entropy
 :aether
Lightining (Remove up to 30 creature hp [Targets])
Lobotomy (Remove creature skills [Targets])
Dimensional Shield (Negates creature attack for 3 turns [Does not Target])
No Defensive Methods against Spell, Poison or Deckout Offensive Methods.

 :air
Fog Shield (Mitigate creature attack [Does not Target])
Wings (Negates walking creature attack [Does not Target])
Shockwave (Remove up to 24 creature hp mono [Targets])
Snipe (Remove 3 creature hp [Targets])
No Defensive Methods against Spell, Poison or Deckout Offensive Methods.

 :darkness
Dusk Mantle | Improved Dusk (Mitigate creature attack [Does not Target])
Drain Life | Syphon Life (Remove variable creature hp [Targets])
Liquid Shadow | Liquid Shadow (Remove creature skills, remove creature hp over time [Targets])
Steal (Remove permanent [Targets])
Devourer (Remove quanta hence Disabling cards in hand [Does not Target])
Various forms of healing (Mitigate/Negate damage [Does not Target])
No Defensive Methods against Deckout Offensive Method.

 :death
Virus (Creature Removal by infection [Targets])
Skull Shield (Creature Negation|Mitigation [Does not Target])
Plague (Mass Creature Removal by infection [Targets])
Bone Wall (Creature Attack Negation [Does not Target])
Alfatoxin (Creature Removal by 2xInfection and Creature Card Disable by clogging field [Targets])
No Defensive Methods against Spell, Poison or Deckout Offensive Methods.

 :earth
Titaninum Shield (Creature Attack Mitigation [Does not Target])
Earthquake (Disable Cards by lack of resources [Targets])
Stone Skin (Damage Mitigation [Does not Target])
Basilisk Blood (Disable Creature for 6 turns [Targets])
Warden (Disable Creature [Targets])
No Defensive Methods against Deckout Offensive Methods.

 :entropy
Maxwelll (Atk heavy Creature removal [Targets])
Antimatter (Creature attack negation, heal Target Attack, attack effects neglected [Targets])
Chaos Seed (Cast variable negative effect spell [Targets]
Pandemonium (Cast variable negative effect spell, mass [Targets]
Dissipation (Creature attack negation, sacrifice quanta [Does not Target])
Mutation (Creature mitigation, alters creature make-up [Targets])
Discord (Disable Cards, alters 10 quanta element [Attack])
Butterfly Effect (Remove creature skills limited, remove permanent [Targets])
No Defensive Methods against Deckout Offensive Methods.


 :fire :gravity :life :light :time :water
 
 :fire
Rage Potion (remove up to 30|36 creature hp [Targets])
Fire Bolt (remove variable creature hp [Targets])
Rain of Fire (Mass creature removal by 3 damage [Targets])
Fire Shield (Creature negation [Does not Target])
Deflagration (Remove Permanent [Targets])
No Defensive Methods against Deckout Offensive Methods.

 :gravity
Gravity Shield | Gravity Shield (Situational creature attack negation [Does not Target])
Gravity Pull (remove up to 6 creatures, requires creature damage present, creature attack mitigation [Targets])
Armagio (Creature attack mitigation[Does not Target])
Otyugh (Remove creature with less hp [Targets])
Black Hole (remove 3 of each quanta hence Disabling cards in hand [Does not Target])
Acceleration (Remove creature skill, remove creature HP over time [Targets])
No Defensive Methods against Deckout Offensive Methods.

 :life
Carapace (Creature negation by infection [Does not Target])
Mitosis (Remove creature skill [Targets])
Emerald Shield | Jade Shield (Creature attack mitigation, spell damage negation by reflection [Does not Target])
Various forms of healing [Does not Target]
No Defensive Methods against Deckout Offensive Methods.

 :light
Reflective Shield (Upgraded creature damage mitigation, spell damage negation by reflection [Does not Target])
Holy Light (Remove up to 60 Darkness/Death creature hp, creature attack mitigation [Targets])
Luciferin (creature attack mitigation, augments Hope [Does not Target])
Hope (Variable creature attack mitigation [Does not Target])
Miracle (Variable damage mitigation[Does not Target])
Sanctuary (Damage mitigation [Does not Target])
No Defensive Methods against Deckout Offensive Methods.

:time
Reverse Time (Creature mitigation by reset to hand, prevents deckout [Targets])
Procrastination (Creature attack mitigation [Does not Target])
Sundial (Creature attack negation [Does not Target])
No Defensive Methods against Spell or Poison Offensive Methods.

:water
Purify (Creature attack mitigation, poison attack negation [Does not Target])
Flooding (Creature negation [Does not Target])
Ice Shield (creature attack mitigation/Disable creature [Does not Target])
Freeze (Disable Creature [Targets])
Ice bolt (Remove variable creature hp, disable creature [Targets])
No Defense Methods against Spell or Deckout Offensive Methods.

Next up, Evasion/Counterdefense.
How do these elements bypass, mtigate, disable or remove defenses?
Having a Spell or Poison Offensive method counts as Evasion through alternate damage.
Exs: Quintessence (Negates targeting defenses), Deflagration (Remove Permanent defenses)
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
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Offline ZephyrPhantom

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Re: Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg392210#msg392210
« Reply #61 on: September 11, 2011, 05:20:09 pm »
 :aether
Quintessence (Negates targeting defense)
Lightning (Negates creature-type defenses)
Lobotomize (Negates creature-based defenses)
 :air
Unstable Gas (Bypasses non-reflective Shields)
OE (Negates creature-based defense)
Shockwave (Removes creature-based defense)
 :darkness
Steal (Steals Permanent defenses and uses them against the original owner)
Drain Life (Bypass non-reflective Shields)
Parasite (Removes Creature based defense)
 :death
Poison  (Bypasses non-reflective Shields)
Plague/Virus (Removes Creature based defense)
 :earth 
Warden (Negates creature-based defense)
Basilisk Blood (Negates creature-based defenses, Negates targeting damage defense)
 :entropy
Butterfly Effect (Destroys Permanent type-defense)
Chaos Seed/Pandemonium (Removes Creature based defense)
 :fire
Explosion (Destroys Permanent-type defense)
RoF (Removes Creature based defense)
Fire Bolt (Bypasses non-reflective Shields)
Rage Potion (Increased attack to bypass DR shields, Removes Creature based defense)
Fire Shield (Removes some Creature based defense)
 :gravity
Momentum (Bypasses Defensive shields)
Gravity Pull (Removes Creature based defense)
 :life
Jade Shield (Counters Bolt-type cards)
Thorn Carapace (Removes some Creature based defense)
 :light
Holy Light (Removes a few creatures defense sources....)
Reflective Shield (Counters Bolt-type cards)
Blessing (Increased attack to bypass DR shields)
Guardian Angel (Negates targeting damage defense)
 :time
Reverse Time (negates Creature removal status effects)
 :water
Ice Bolt (Bypasses non-reflective Shields)
Purify (Counters Poison (Bypass))
Working on this.

Offline OldTreesTopic starter

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Re: Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg394288#msg394288
« Reply #62 on: September 17, 2011, 06:03:47 am »
I am assuming the Offensive Methods, Defensive Methods and Evasion/Counter Defense is not missing anything drastic for mono.

Slight problems/areas that can be improved
Offensive Methods:
 :aether :darkness :earth :entropy :time +1 Melee tool
 :air :earth :entropy :gravity :light A third Offensive Method in mono (Alternatively tools that enhance the offensive part of Deckout)
 :aether :life A Swarm method that does not rely on the Fractal/Mitosis tool
 :life :water Another poison tool
Defensive Methods:
 :aether :air :death :time :water against Spell
 :aether :air :death :time against Poison
[All] against Deckout (Should not necessarily give immunity to deckout. Forcing the opponent to draw would work as a defense.)
Evasion/Counter Defense:
Lots of improvement possible especially against CC and Denial.

Based off this, Fire does seem to be the only complete Element and that gives it a drastic metagame advantage. This is not necessarily the only reason but this is a contributing factor that can be corrected by buffing the other elements through new cards.
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
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Offline ZephyrPhantom

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Re: Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg394682#msg394682
« Reply #63 on: September 18, 2011, 02:21:23 am »
Would it be more of a benefit to Complete one element at a time, or attempt to complete them all at once by introducing new cards and seeing how they work against each other in the game?

Offline OldTreesTopic starter

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Re: Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg394687#msg394687
« Reply #64 on: September 18, 2011, 02:56:04 am »
Would it be more of a benefit to Complete one element at a time, or attempt to complete them all at once by introducing new cards and seeing how they work against each other in the game?
Zanz would not have time to complete them all at once. Improving a few each update would be the wisest move from the little I can see. However the CardIdea&Art and IdeaFactory should consider these deficiencies as sources of inspiration. We should not be overeager or too relaxed in the suggesting of solutions. Evasion (or the lack thereof) seems to have the most visible metagame influence but it is also the hardest one to complete without overlap.
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"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
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Offline The_Mormegil

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Re: Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg396097#msg396097
« Reply #65 on: September 20, 2011, 10:58:20 am »
I am assuming the Offensive Methods, Defensive Methods and Evasion/Counter Defense is not missing anything drastic for mono.

Slight problems/areas that can be improved
Offensive Methods:
 :aether :darkness :earth :entropy :time +1 Melee tool
 :air :earth :entropy :gravity :light A third Offensive Method in mono (Alternatively tools that enhance the offensive part of Deckout)
 :aether :life A Swarm method that does not rely on the Fractal/Mitosis tool
 :life :water Another poison tool
Defensive Methods:
 :aether :air :death :time :water against Spell
 :aether :air :death :time against Poison
[All] against Deckout (Should not necessarily give immunity to deckout. Forcing the opponent to draw would work as a defense.)
Evasion/Counter Defense:
Lots of improvement possible especially against CC and Denial.

Based off this, Fire does seem to be the only complete Element and that gives it a drastic metagame advantage. This is not necessarily the only reason but this is a contributing factor that can be corrected by buffing the other elements through new cards.
It seems that broad categories of cards that are needed are:
- Defenses against Spells
- Defenses against Poison
- Counter CC cards
- More offensive creatures
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Offline OldTreesTopic starter

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Re: Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg396147#msg396147
« Reply #66 on: September 20, 2011, 02:17:28 pm »
I am assuming the Offensive Methods, Defensive Methods and Evasion/Counter Defense is not missing anything drastic for mono.

Slight problems/areas that can be improved
Offensive Methods:
 :aether :darkness :earth :entropy :time +1 Melee tool
 :air :earth :entropy :gravity :light A third Offensive Method in mono (Alternatively tools that enhance the offensive part of Deckout)
 :aether :life A Swarm method that does not rely on the Fractal/Mitosis tool
 :life :water Another poison tool
Defensive Methods:
 :aether :air :death :time :water against Spell
 :aether :air :death :time against Poison
[All] against Deckout (Should not necessarily give immunity to deckout. Forcing the opponent to draw would work as a defense.)
Evasion/Counter Defense:
Lots of improvement possible especially against CC and Denial.

Based off this, Fire does seem to be the only complete Element and that gives it a drastic metagame advantage. This is not necessarily the only reason but this is a contributing factor that can be corrected by buffing the other elements through new cards.
It seems that broad categories of cards that are needed are:
- Defenses against Spells
- Defenses against Poison
- Counter CC cards
- More offensive creatures
Agreed however 5 of the Elements need some new non melee form of offense so they are less predictable.
Also you missed "Counter Denial cards" (Immolation, Nova, Sanctuary, SoR + Offensive skill, ...)
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Offline TheManuz

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Re: Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg396150#msg396150
« Reply #67 on: September 20, 2011, 02:34:01 pm »
The non-melee form of offense can bring some new and creative ideas for cards.
These should be spells, permanents or creature that deal damage in non-conventional ways.

I will think of it, maybe i get some ideas for my next card!  :)

Offline Captain Scibra

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Re: Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg405975#msg405975
« Reply #68 on: October 07, 2011, 08:18:07 pm »
Going to get back into this, but instead of looking at each element as a whole or it's capabilities, let us take a simpler look at them: their variety of types of cards.

Starting with artifact (non-equipment and non-pillar) permanants.  Currently, there are different numbers of permanents throughout the different elements, some have none, some have two.  This I believe can be a card type that can be expanded upon greatly.

Let's take a count.

Aether (1) : Mindgate
Air (1) : Unstable Gas
Darkness (2) : Cloak, Eclipse
Death (2) : Boneyard, Soul Catcher
Earth (0)
Entropy (0)
Fire (0)
Gravity (1) : Catapult
Life (1) : Empathic Bond
Light (1) : Sanctuary
Time (2) : Golden Hourglass, Sundial
Water (1) : Flooding

As you can see, three elements have no artifact permanents, and three have two.
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The New Card Theory Thread

Offline OldTreesTopic starter

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Re: Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg405994#msg405994
« Reply #69 on: October 07, 2011, 09:09:59 pm »
1)
The reason I use Offense, Defense and Counterdefense/Evasion is because I have good reasons (see above) for why every element needs Offense, Defense and Counterdefense/Evasion. I do not have good reasons for every element needing Artifacts.

2)
Offense, Defense & Counterdefense/Evasion is simpler than the list of card types.

3)
Offense, Defense & Counterdefense/Evasion are based of the effect of the card. This allows more accurate generalization. Type based divisions would be hard pressed to maintain accuracy when generalizing.
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Offline Zaealix

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Re: Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg406163#msg406163
« Reply #70 on: October 08, 2011, 01:55:48 am »
A few ideas for new cards to buff elements.
A regeneration-type buff, perhaps with simmilarity to Acceleration.
A anti-denial card that allows for alternate costs (lots of ideas here thanks to the various '13' element contests.
A protective charge-type buff, perhaps negating a certain number of spells or other effects.
(Also, Posting for keeping tabs on this topic)
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Offline OldTreesTopic starter

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Re: Which elements are "Complete"? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30640.msg406191#msg406191
« Reply #71 on: October 08, 2011, 02:56:27 am »
A few ideas for new cards to buff elements.
A regeneration-type buff, perhaps with simmilarity to Acceleration.
A anti-denial card that allows for alternate costs (lots of ideas here thanks to the various '13' element contests.
A protective charge-type buff, perhaps negating a certain number of spells or other effects.
(Also, Posting for keeping tabs on this topic)
Regeneration (creature regen right?) seems to answer damage over time (Infection or Acceleration) but would not stop Instant damage like most damage CC.

Alt costs and/or instant quanta production are good answers to quanta denial. We need to be careful not to overdo this method because 2-3 versions are in game already.

The lucky (chance of ignoring) or many lives (charges) are good answers to targeting.
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
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