Which elements are "Complete"?

[Rutarete]

I'd like to raise the point that maybe not every element needs to be complete? If every element can do everything, then aren't the elements all the same?

Only in a category aspect. The methods (cards with which 'completeness' is achieved) differ, thereby making them all not the same.

[Pineapple]

I'd like to raise the point that maybe not every element needs to be complete? If every element can do everything, then aren't the elements all the same?

Only in a category aspect. The methods (cards with which 'completeness' is achieved) differ, thereby making them all not the same.

But it's really hard to think of 12 different ways to negate/mitigate the effects of, say, a permanent. Right now, we can only destroy it, and soon we can freeze it, which is the exact same thing as delaying it. After these two, we're pretty much screwed on a creativity level, unless you want to just add thematic side-effects to fit the elements. However, if you do that, you go back to my point with every element being able to do everything: now you have half the elements being able to destroy and half the elements being able to delay. In the end, we should not balance cards within elements, but cards within decks.

[Rutarete]

I'd like to raise the point that maybe not every element needs to be complete? If every element can do everything, then aren't the elements all the same?

Only in a category aspect. The methods (cards with which 'completeness' is achieved) differ, thereby making them all not the same.

But it's really hard to think of 12 different ways to negate/mitigate the effects of, say, a permanent. Right now, we can only destroy it, and soon we can freeze it, which is the exact same thing as delaying it. After these two, we're pretty much screwed on a creativity level, unless you want to just add thematic side-effects to fit the elements. However, if you do that, you go back to my point with every element being able to do everything: now you have half the elements being able to destroy and half the elements being able to delay. In the end, we should not balance cards within elements, but cards within decks.

You might as well say that tennis, baseball, volleyball and many other sports are the same because all they do is 'hit a ball', with the method of hitting being the 'thematic' part (rackets, bats, hands, etc.).

[GG]

I'd like to raise the point that maybe not every element needs to be complete? If every element can do everything, then aren't the elements all the same?

Word.

This one quality is the reason why Elements the Game is such a good CCG compared to a bulk of CCGs, where two factions basically have the cards with exact same effects but with different names.


Also you probably need to include a category 'stall' on the chart, since stalling is one of the major ways to win a duel.
ex) Stall means abilities/cards that allow the user to absorb/ignore incoming damage, not necessary destroy the cause of it.
  Phase Shield, Dissipation Shield/Field, Gravity Pull, Armagio, etc.

[ddevans96]

I'd like to raise the point that maybe not every element needs to be complete? If every element can do everything, then aren't the elements all the same?

In my opinion: Being 'complete' does not mean an element has everything. It means an element can succeed in making a wide variety of deck types. Fire, for example, does not have healing or quanta denial, and yet it is 'complete' because it can stall and control without these.

[OldTrees]

I'd like to raise the point that maybe not every element needs to be complete? If every element can do everything, then aren't the elements all the same?

I am using complete to represent solid offensive and defensive tools that correspond to that element. The offensive methods and defensive methods should differ between elements but they should still exist. Take Reverse Time, Lightning, Basilisk Blood, Dusk Shield, Hope and Wings as examples of how the defenses against melee differ.

That is why I wanted to move past the chart up above. Each element IMHO should have solid offense and solid defense but they do not all need to have offensive method 4 [Eternity deck out] to be complete.

You mentioned it is hard to think of 12 different ways to defend against permanents. I agree. However that is what the community can help with.
I can think of 5 [Remove(destroy/bounce), Steal, Disable(freeze), Prevent(resource denial), Negate(use equal and opposite effect)]

[artimies7]

Life needs PC. 'Nuff said.

I can't think of anything Earth needs, though.

[The_Mormegil]

By my understanding, there are a few issues about every single elements player agrees on: that some elements are stronger than others; that most cards are balanced, but the in-element synergy of some cards make elements like Fire clearly superior to elements like Gravity; that Elements would benefit from a little revision, through either addition of new cards, change of the old ones or both. What people do not agree on is what exactly to do to "fix" or rather patch the issues that everyone feels should be addressed.

How many of you would aid if I was to consider gathering opinions and ideas in a single thread, so that everybody could discuss the different takes on the matter? How many and how much would you help me, providing both ideas and feedback? It's been a couple days since I starting making an archetype for such a thread. If there is partecipation, I might go ahead and do it: I fear, though, that it might be deserted and lose its charm from the start.

[Tiko]

I strongly support the in-element revision, and also your idea, Morm. Your previous post was a great summary - though there were points where I hold different opinions -, it would be great to point out these 'gaps or issues' and propose a remedy for them in the meantime in a single place, or just to hold a discussion about - still, I think OldTrees meant this topic for something like this. Also, it should be kept in mind, not to expect sudden changes: it's the biggest reason why it would "lose its charm" in the long run.

On a sidenote: I am still surprised that Arena made people realize this 'issue' we have.

[TheManuz]

By my understanding, there are a few issues about every single elements player agrees on: that some elements are stronger than others; that most cards are balanced, but the in-element synergy of some cards make elements like Fire clearly superior to elements like Gravity; that Elements would benefit from a little revision, through either addition of new cards, change of the old ones or both. What people do not agree on is what exactly to do to "fix" or rather patch the issues that everyone feels should be addressed.

How many of you would aid if I was to consider gathering opinions and ideas in a single thread, so that everybody could discuss the different takes on the matter? How many and how much would you help me, providing both ideas and feedback? It's been a couple days since I starting making an archetype for such a thread. If there is partecipation, I might go ahead and do it: I fear, though, that it might be deserted and lose its charm from the start.

I think this is one of the most interesting thread in a long time. I believe that the difficulty in get good responses is to clearly define what the problem is.
The two biggest issues for me right now are:

• We need to "complete" every element, but making them differ from each other (we don't need variations of Deflagration for each element, we need unique ways to alter the permanent usefulness)
• We need a different mechanic to play rainbows, "other" cards are really underused because Quantum Pillars | Towers unbalances the quanta gain (my opinion, of course).

I'd very like to partecipate however i can.

[OldTrees]

@The Mormegil
I would participate. I would still like this thread to collect some opinions on which elements have Solid offensive tools and Solid defensive tools.

[Camoninja]

You mentioned it is hard to think of 12 different ways to defend against permanents. I agree. However that is what the community can help with.
I can think of 5 [Remove(destroy/bounce), Steal, Disable(freeze), Prevent(resource denial), Negate(use equal and opposite effect)]

How about
-Stuff it back in the owner's deck somewhere like Rewind
-Change the ability cost element on activated permanents
-Increase activation cost
-Completely lobotomize permanently (I think this is your Prevent)
-Add a failure rate to activated premaments, halve the success rate of passive permanents
-Trade permanents, give away your permanent in that spot or your highest slot number (Carapace, voodoo doll, buff, trade) or trade something useless