Random Effects

[joebob777]

we will discuss what kind of cost decrease we should have on random effects here

[joebob777]

on your previous comment, doublecross, about the types of effects being different as a variable, that is a good idea, but we cant have something as different as "add one purify counter" and "play miracle"  to be categorized under "heal

[Hyroen]

I think a good card to consider for this thread is Pandemonium, or possibly even Chaos Seed.

EDIT: Also, would you mind capitalizing the thread title?

[OldTrees]

Good idea to make a new thread for this topic.

For effects that do not decrease in value I think we should not have a cost decrease.
For those effects that do decrease in value I think the probability of their uselessness multiplied by their value at such a time (might be negative) be used instead of the normal value for those probabilities.
Aka calculate at more and more detailed levels until the events considered get insignificant.

Lets start with Chaos seed.

[doublecross]

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20492.msg278035#msg278035



Can you guys link to the other cards where we have already argued this some?

[joebob777]

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20448.0.html  is the original arguement

[OldTrees]

The categorical approch as a 2nd tier more detailed analysis is a good idea Doublecross

Hard CC
Drain Life
Fire Bolt
Gravity Pull
Ice Bolt
Infection
Lightning
Shockwave
Sniper

Soft CC
Freeze
Lobotomize
Reverse Time

Not CC
Parallel Universe

[doublecross]

OldTrees, I take it this means you read my analysis of Wish|Wish (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20492.msg278035#msg278035)

Do you agree with my logic about why the cost should be marginally reduced?

[joebob777]

Chaos Seed | Chaos Power analysis

it cost one because it can give many different statuses to different creatures
ie: give momentum to enemy creature, or freeze your lava destroyer, stuff like that
that is why it was justified with a cost of one
chaos power can go anywhere from +1|+1 to i think up to +4|+4 which should cost (based that improved blessing gives +3|+3 for 2 quanta) the average of .6, 1.3, 2 and 2.6 because the boosts are most likely only going to go to your own side, which is why it gets little cost reduction

[OldTrees]

OldTrees, I take it this means you read my analysis of Wish|Wish (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,20492.msg278035#msg278035)

Do you agree with my logic about why the cost should be marginally reduced?

Yes occasionally the increased desire for one effect should raise the price (see shockwave) and the occasional decrease in desire of other effects (chaos seed as cc) should decrease the price.

[doublecross]

Shockwave is not a random effect card though.

The randomness should always force the cost below the average, unless every effect is always fully useful.

Edit: I broke out my arguing profile pic.

[joebob777]

so if whatwe go by is number of categories, then we should first figure out the different categories before finding a determining cost factor
oldtrees stated above the types of cc
we could split up major and minor buffs
poisons in a group
split up major and minor heals
anything else?

@doublecross, he was stating a category, just like in wish, miracle is not random, but part of a random effect
hehe didnt read full post