Having an effect and its counter in the same element

[NikaZaslavsky]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but to me it seems like something people should decide and use as a possible guideline.

Should one Element have both an effect and its "counter" in it?

Note: by effect I mean a card or creature ability mechanic

So, for example, Quintessence. Should Aether have a counter to it? Something that could get rid of the immaterial status? Should it be in a different element? In chat, Higs mentioned that an anti-quint couldn't be in Time, since they can't really affect each other. That makes sense, so another question to answer could be "Should an effect's counter be in its opposite element?"

Basically, just post what you think about having an effect and a counter to it in the same element. Do you think it would make it OP? Would it be ok? Would the element seem more than complete? Why?

I hope to come to a conclusion, so other people could look at this and say, "I shouldn't post a card idea for an Aether card that would be an anti-quint." Of course it shouldn't become a formal rule, just a display of the community's opinion.

[furballdn]

Hello fire! Hello fire shield! Hello lava golem and phoenix!

[russianspy1234]

reverse time and precognition

adreniline and thorn carapice

bonewall is powered by plague and virus no matter who uses them

the gravity shield stops most of the gravity creatures which also "counter" otyugo.  momentum gets past armagio

flood and water creatures. chrysora/puffer fish and purify

light has solar shield and 3 creatures with 1 attack

 wings is countered by airs creatures.

aether has quint and immaterial creatures which counter lightning bolt

[NikaZaslavsky]

No, I meant direct counters. A direct counter would be like Poison/Purify. Those mostly aren't what I had in mind when thinking of counters.

One other thing: Antimatter counters itself, and it is obviously in the same element as itself

[Naesala]

Hard to say, I would have to approach it on the nature of the card itself.

[Pineapple]

So Fire, for example. It has low-hp creatures, but those are countered by fire shield, which is countered by deflagration. But what is deflagration countered by? Are you trying to trim cards of an element into RPS loops (things outside of the loops cannot exist because their counters are not in-element)?

Hard to say, I would have to approach it on the nature of the card itself.

What he said. If there is no theme, there should be no card.

[OldTrees]

Your question is easily answered by examining the alternative question:
Should an element be defenseless against something in its arsenal? No, an element should not be defenseless period, although being vulnerable is acceptable.

You further clairified your question to be:
Should an element have a direct counter to everything in its arsenal? No, not all tools should have direct counters. Sometimes indirect counters are more appropriate. Ex: [Deflagration] "Restore target permanent" is impossible because Zanz has vetoed including a grave. However delfagration is obviously indirectly countered by non permanents like Lava Golem and Red Nymph respectively (Deflagration is used as defense or to counter a defense).

Summary: Yes Aether and Time should both have responses to Quint. However an anti-Quint is unneeded and intrinsically problematic.

Sidenote: An obsession with direct counters and inversion (the subcategory you are referencing) artificially limits both strategy and design. I am not claiming you have such an obsession and I use the word obsession for shock value. However people are biased in favor of direct connections over indirect connections. This is a feature to be recognized and overcome.

[Cel]

So Fire, for example. It has low-hp creatures, but those are countered by fire shield, which is countered by deflagration. But what is deflagration countered by? Are you trying to trim cards of an element into RPS loops (things outside of the loops cannot exist because their counters are not in-element)?

Isn't the counter for Deflagration Protect Artifact? 

[rickerd]

Sweet dreams is the counter of nightmare 

[Pineapple]

So Fire, for example. It has low-hp creatures, but those are countered by fire shield, which is countered by deflagration. But what is deflagration countered by? Are you trying to trim cards of an element into RPS loops (things outside of the loops cannot exist because their counters are not in-element)?

Isn't the counter for Deflagration Protect Artifact? 

Sure, so let's say we put a fire version of Protect Artifact into the game. What's the counter for this flaming Protect Artifact? Eventually, you have to go back to the first thing, forming a loop, with all the branches being trimmed off.

[rickerd]

so you can say bh is a counter for everything because it won't let you play anything, and a counter for that bh is an other bh (and sanct  ) and to counter that bh you'll need another one.
You know I'll shut my mouth

[OldTrees]

Summary of Fire

X < respond with Y
Creatures < CC
Fire Shield < Deflagration
Deflagration < CC Spells, Red Nymph
CC < Fahrenheit
Fahrenheit < Deflagration
Deflagration < Creatures, Fire Bolt
Fire Bolt < Creatures, Immolation
Immolation < CC