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Dengeki

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expand some horizons. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34704.msg437612#msg437612
« on: December 11, 2011, 08:28:10 pm »
All too often do i hear that you cant have this ability in this element cause it already exists for another element.  i think the  community should shed themselves of these preconcieved ideas.  or i feal the elements will never get a chance to evolve.  some examples; devour should have the opportunity to be used in other elements without it being gravity driven, on account themantically speaking things eat to live. momentum is another ability that should be usable where it makes sense and not just because its gravity. and air element is mostly flying but almost all elements have it, time is not the only draw card element(it is mainly just atm.)but shouldnt be.  those are just a few of examples, and they are not specific on purpose.  i just think if cards are going to get made, and each element is going to evolve into better balanced more complete aspects of themselves.- were going to have to have an open mind.
*please dont make posts against my examples, that is not the reason for this post.
*please post what abilities you think should be "taken out of the box".  and what abilities should go more into a restrictive box.

Firenotes

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Re: Needs to lighten up. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34704.msg437620#msg437620
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2011, 08:36:14 pm »
If moving momentum out of gravity makes gravity weaker, than gravity needs a power boost. Gravity becoming weaker isn't an excuse to keep it locked up.

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Offline Acsabi44

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Re: expand some horizons. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34704.msg437679#msg437679
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2011, 10:20:01 pm »
No. Color pie. (http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Color_Pie) Exists for a reason.
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Re: expand some horizons. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34704.msg437683#msg437683
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2011, 10:35:51 pm »
till each element can be considered complete, without looking to other elements for mechanics, this blurring of borders wont happen.
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Offline russianspy1234

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Re: expand some horizons. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34704.msg437685#msg437685
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2011, 10:40:02 pm »
No. Color pie. (http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Color_Pie) Exists for a reason.
there is not a single thing in magic that is strictly one color, certain colors are just better at doing certain things, or get them more often.
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Re: expand some horizons. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34704.msg437687#msg437687
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2011, 10:40:38 pm »
That makes sense ^^

Offline OldTrees

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Re: expand some horizons. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34704.msg437782#msg437782
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2011, 03:06:04 am »
No. Color pie. (http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Color_Pie) Exists for a reason.
there is not a single thing in magic that is strictly one color, certain colors are just better at doing certain things, or get them more often.
The community on a whole is fine with Momentum appearing outside of Gravity if there is reasonable cause. The problem is almost no one ever includes a reasonable cause.
Blurring should not happen just because creative juices ran low. Rather blurring should only happen when it makes sense and is supported with a reasonable case. MtG is a great example of how blurring can be done right. However EtG is more careful with balance than the fast and loose MtG. This gives incentive for having each element doing things differently rather than repeating old ideas into the grave.
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Offline dragonsdemesne

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Re: expand some horizons. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34704.msg437817#msg437817
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2011, 04:26:59 am »
I don't think it occurs to most people because I don't think most of the community has played many other CCGs like Magic, and doesn't know how things could be.  I could be wrong, but Elements is more of a casual gamer's game, it seems to me, anyway, based on most of the forum posts and attitudes I see.

I think the first step is to increase the card base in each element.  A lot of elements still don't even have some of the most basic concepts.  Life has no midrange attacker, (nothing between cockatrice and dragon) for example, gravity doesn't have a cheap attacker (at least unupped; upped it has graviton guard), light has no unupped midrange attacker (has archangel upped), and so on.

Once the game expands to include some of these basic factors, then we can start worrying about "expanding the horizons" of the game, as you put it.  For something like momentum, gravity should have the -best- momentum cards, but giving them to other elements in weaker form could be feasible.  Look at things like creature removal; most elements have some form of it.  Fire has the most removal, but most other elements have some as well, even if it's not very good.  Even Life has Thorn/Spine Carapace and Light has Holy Light/Flash. (though that's very narrow in scope)

Zanz is most likely quite busy with other committments, and doesn't have the time to build the number of cards we need.  He'll get around to it in his own good time, but remember, he's giving us this game for free, and he's not getting anything out of it except a few donations and another project to add to his coding portfolio.  I'm happy to take whatever he gives us.  But yes, if Zanz had infinite time to expand the game, it would definitely benefit from what you're suggesting, at least to a point.  Giving Fire a freezing effect would be ridiculous, but giving something like a 2/2 momentum creature to Life, or a 2/2 immortal creature to Light isn't completely out of the question, as two basic examples.

Each element should have some things it's -best- at.  No element should be able to do everything, however.  Fire's got the best removal, life has the best creature casting cost to power/toughness ratio (but still needs more varied creatures), Life and Light have the best healing, Time has the best card advantage, Aether has shrouded creatures and quintessence, and Light has shrouded and mirror shields.  Entropy has most of the cards with random effects, Gravity has momentum and gravity pull, Air has the airborne theme, Death has the death trigger theme, water has the freezing theme, Earth has burrowing, and so on.

Other elements have some of these effects, too, but weaker ones.  Darkness has removal, but less than Fire.  Fire has some very efficient creatures as well, at least in the power department.  (not in toughness, except the nymph)  Darkness, Gravity, and Entropy can heal, but not very well.  Aether has card advantage with mindgate and fractal, Time has Anubis, Life has Jade Shield, lots of shields have random effects.  Fate Egg is also random, every element has at least the dragon that flies, Time and Earth have delay effects similar to freezing, and so on.

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Re: expand some horizons. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34704.msg437835#msg437835
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2011, 05:16:47 am »
Each element should have some things it's -best- at.  No element should be able to do everything, however.  Fire's got the best removal, life has the best creature casting cost to power/toughness ratio (but still needs more varied creatures), Life and Light have the best healing, Time has the best card advantage, Aether has shrouded creatures and quintessence, and Light has shrouded and mirror shields.  Entropy has most of the cards with random effects, Gravity has momentum and gravity pull, Air has the airborne theme, Death has the death trigger theme, water has the freezing theme, Earth has burrowing, and so on.

Other elements have some of these effects, too, but weaker ones.  Darkness has removal, but less than Fire.  Fire has some very efficient creatures as well, at least in the power department.  (not in toughness, except the nymph)  Darkness, Gravity, and Entropy can heal, but not very well.  Aether has card advantage with mindgate and fractal, Time has Anubis, Life has Jade Shield, lots of shields have random effects.  Fate Egg is also random, every element has at least the dragon that flies, Time and Earth have delay effects similar to freezing, and so on.
Here is where I must disagree with the color wheel analogy. EtG is much better balanced than MtG and does not need the Elemental Superiority and Elemental Gap inferior design relics.

Elemental Superiority is the claim that if a spell that destroyed a single target permanent were put in a non Fire element that it should cost more than Deflagration because Fire is supposed to be superior at destruction.
Elemental Gap is the claim that each element should have a deficiency such that there is a threat that they cannot build a mono deck that can stand a chance against.

It is fine for Fire's cards to be better at destruction than other tasks. However 1 :fire should not be inherently better at destruction than 1 :time if we want to maintain the ease of balancing that currently exists. Balancing SoSac is hard enough without having to worry about 1 :fire=/= 1 :gravity.
Likewise it is Fine for Fire to have a very difficult time combating CC rich threats and CC resilient threats. However mono Fire should not instantly lose just because someone put CC or Quint in their deck. Fire bolt and Fire Shield exist for a reason.

I mostly agree with you provided you are not promoting the flawed designs of Elemental Superiority or Elemental Gap.
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anything
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