Ask the Idea Guru

[Pineapple]

I'm pretty much at a loss on how to balance Stone Legion (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,37566).
What are you thoughts?

[OldTrees]

I'm pretty much at a loss on how to balance Stone Legion (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,37566).
What are you thoughts?

It is a bit unclear, can the creatures do anything other than sit there? Aka do the 3 Nymphs get to use their abilities?

[Pineapple]

I'm pretty much at a loss on how to balance Stone Legion (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,37566).
What are you thoughts?

It is a bit unclear, can the creatures do anything other than sit there? Aka do the 3 Nymphs get to use their abilities?

Yes. They can do everything a creature can do except attack (and for the unupgraded, be targeted).

[OldTrees]

I'm pretty much at a loss on how to balance Stone Legion (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,37566).
What are you thoughts?

It is a bit unclear, can the creatures do anything other than sit there? Aka do the 3 Nymphs get to use their abilities?

Yes. They can do everything a creature can do except attack (and for the unupgraded, be targeted).

So unupped they are vulneable to PC but upgraded they are vulnerable to PC and some CC (Reverse Time)?

Then the effect of the average usage can be summarized as:
3 Nymphs - attack + PC rather than CC | 3 Nymphs - attack + PC rather than CC

I think Blue Nymph gets the best advantage
Value: 3x (8 + 1 card) - 9 attack + PC rather than CC | 3x (8 + 1 card) - 9 attack + Invincible
Value: 15 + 3 cards + PC rather than CC | 15 + 3 cards + PC rather than CC
Result: Stone Legion + 15 + 5 + 3 turns = Victory.

Obviously this entails that how Nymphs are handled is going to be central to the balancing of Stone Legion.
Option 1) You can design Stone Legion primarily for Nymph use
Option 2) You can rules that Stone Nymphs are Pillars (Is that implied by Nymph's Tear?)

Once you have decided you identify the quanta value of the most valuable activated ability that could be obtained. (5 +1card for Blue Nymph, 2 +1card for Fallen Druid, 2 + 1 card for Anubis)

Then you identify a range of casting costs that you want Stone Legion to fall inside.

Divide desired cost by estimated value. Analysis to obtain the size of the legion the will be created.

So lets assume Nymphs become pillars leaving the most valuable skill at the 2 + 1card mark. Lets assume you want to hit the sweet spot of 4-6 + 1 card.
4 + 1 card / 2 + 1 card < 2
6 + 1 card / 2 + 1 card < 3
Thus the stone legion would create 2 statues for somewhere around the cost of 4 +1card +/-1 .

[Pineapple]

Hm...I was thinking for those summoned by the upgraded card to be affected by all forms of CC by being a creature (with stats) in the permanent zone.

Note that Nymphs are just as expensive as Pharaoh and Anubis. In addition, Nymph abilities aren't all that powerful; an Anubis statue is surely better than a Turquoise statue.
As for Blue Nymph, I think that it only shows that 3 skills per turn from the 2nd turn onwards is a bit overpowered. However, summoning 2 doesn't really fit with summoning a legion...

Is a mechanic that summons 1 at the end of every turn for free balance-able, or does it need to be a timed permanent and/or a permanent with an ability cost? I've calculated that this permanent would cost 3/2 quanta (using your final cost as a basis for the effect's worth). Do you have a different conclusion for initial cost?

[ZephyrPhantom]

Ad Infinitum | Ad Infinitum (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,37658.0.html)

I feel the Eternal ability deserves a better vehicle. Am I correct, and could you join the discussion with your thoughts?

[OldTrees]

Hm...I was thinking for those summoned by the upgraded card to be affected by all forms of CC by being a creature (with stats) in the permanent zone.

Note that Nymphs are just as expensive as Pharaoh and Anubis. In addition, Nymph abilities aren't all that powerful; an Anubis statue is surely better than a Turquoise statue.
As for Blue Nymph, I think that it only shows that 3 skills per turn from the 2nd turn onwards is a bit overpowered. However, summoning 2 doesn't really fit with summoning a legion...

Is a mechanic that summons 1 at the end of every turn for free balance-able, or does it need to be a timed permanent and/or a permanent with an ability cost? I've calculated that this permanent would cost 3/2 quanta (using your final cost as a basis for the effect's worth). Do you have a different conclusion for initial cost?

1) Being vulnerable to CC would be better on the unupped card. (Upgrades are better not worse)
2) Unstable Gas, Black Hole, Antimatter and Rage Potion are very nice.
3) The larger the legion desired, the higher the cost to summon.
4) A permanent that summons something worth 2-4 quanta + 1 card per turn is going to cost more than 3 quanta + 1 card.
5) I think we should think twice before making a permanent that generates a Black Hole casting statue per turn.

Ad Infinitum | Ad Infinitum (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,37658.0.html)

I feel the Eternal ability deserves a better vehicle. Am I correct, and could you join the discussion with your thoughts?

The Eternal ability was submitted to the Crucible under a different name (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23068.msg312922#msg312922) by Kami. It did not survive the polls and was archived. Eternal may deserve a better vehicle but we do not submit the same suggestion twice.

[Pineapple]

Hm...I was thinking for those summoned by the upgraded card to be affected by all forms of CC by being a creature (with stats) in the permanent zone.

Note that Nymphs are just as expensive as Pharaoh and Anubis. In addition, Nymph abilities aren't all that powerful; an Anubis statue is surely better than a Turquoise statue.
As for Blue Nymph, I think that it only shows that 3 skills per turn from the 2nd turn onwards is a bit overpowered. However, summoning 2 doesn't really fit with summoning a legion...

Is a mechanic that summons 1 at the end of every turn for free balance-able, or does it need to be a timed permanent and/or a permanent with an ability cost? I've calculated that this permanent would cost 3/2 quanta (using your final cost as a basis for the effect's worth). Do you have a different conclusion for initial cost?

1) Being vulnerable to CC would be better on the unupped card. (Upgrades are better not worse)
2) Unstable Gas, Black Hole, Antimatter and Rage Potion are very nice.
3) The larger the legion desired, the higher the cost to summon.
4) A permanent that summons something worth 2-4 quanta + 1 card per turn is going to cost more than 3 quanta + 1 card.
5) I think we should think twice before making a permanent that generates a Black Hole casting statue per turn.

1) Cremation, Fractal, Mitosis, TU, and SoR all require targeting.
2) They also cost a hefty bit to use repeatably, which limits the impact of (initial) cost reduction. This is especially true for nymphs since you cannot remove an element from the equation since all nymphs have mono abilities.
3) This may not be true because of the delay. Assuming you activate all abilities once per turn, it takes 4 turns for my suggested version to match the capability of the your suggested version. In addition, the suggested version is much less reliable, since it can be destroyed before it stays out for 4 turns.
4) Assuming unit increase in ATK equals a unit increase in cost, an Air Nymph with 0 attack costs 2 quanta. In addition, you can only have 6 Air Nymphs in a deck.
5) I believe that the drastic decrease in or limit on damage potential upon the use of Stone Legion warrants the ability to field 6 Gravity Nymphs within 6 turns (6 turns assuming you don't need to wait for quanta to use its ability).

[OldTrees]

Hm...I was thinking for those summoned by the upgraded card to be affected by all forms of CC by being a creature (with stats) in the permanent zone.

Note that Nymphs are just as expensive as Pharaoh and Anubis. In addition, Nymph abilities aren't all that powerful; an Anubis statue is surely better than a Turquoise statue.
As for Blue Nymph, I think that it only shows that 3 skills per turn from the 2nd turn onwards is a bit overpowered. However, summoning 2 doesn't really fit with summoning a legion...

Is a mechanic that summons 1 at the end of every turn for free balance-able, or does it need to be a timed permanent and/or a permanent with an ability cost? I've calculated that this permanent would cost 3/2 quanta (using your final cost as a basis for the effect's worth). Do you have a different conclusion for initial cost?

1) Being vulnerable to CC would be better on the unupped card. (Upgrades are better not worse)
2) Unstable Gas, Black Hole, Antimatter and Rage Potion are very nice.
3) The larger the legion desired, the higher the cost to summon.
4) A permanent that summons something worth 2-4 quanta + 1 card per turn is going to cost more than 3 quanta + 1 card.
5) I think we should think twice before making a permanent that generates a Black Hole casting statue per turn.

1) Cremation, Fractal, Mitosis, TU, and SoR all require targeting.
2) They also cost a hefty bit to use repeatably, which limits the impact of (initial) cost reduction. This is especially true for nymphs since you cannot remove an element from the equation since all nymphs have mono abilities.
3) This may not be true because of the delay. Assuming you activate all abilities once per turn, it takes 4 turns for my suggested version to match the capability of the your suggested version. In addition, the suggested version is much less reliable, since it can be destroyed before it stays out for 4 turns.
4) Assuming unit increase in ATK equals a unit increase in cost, an Air Nymph with 0 attack costs 2 quanta. In addition, you can only have 6 Air Nymphs in a deck.
5) I believe that the drastic decrease in or limit on damage potential upon the use of Stone Legion warrants the ability to field 6 Gravity Nymphs within 6 turns (6 turns assuming you don't need to wait for quanta to use its ability).

1)
Cremation + Stone Legion < Cremation + 0 cost Cremation Fodder.
Fractal + Stone Legion merely gives you an expensive 7th-12th copy of fractal fodder in the deck.
Mitosis + Stone Legion gives you a PC vulnerable version of Mitosis + Creature. (However it might require a large legion for a high cost to balance Stone Legion + Mitosis + SoR)
Twin Universe + Stone Legion would be balanced with Twin Universe + Creature assuming you balance Stone Legion
Shard of Readiness would be an additional cost to remove an element requirement. Additional costs deserve additional benefit
These suggestions reveal that they are additional benefits for additional costs. Being immune to CC is an additional benefit. It should have the additional cost of requiring the upgrade rather than have each of the listed synergies have to pay twice for the same benefit.

2)
The hefty cost is part of the reason why their skills are not valued at +8 quanta + 1 card or higher. I am not suggesting having Stone Legion cost more to get Nymph abilities than it costs Nymphs to get them. I am suggesting it cost the same as 0 attack versions of the Nymphs. OR I am suggesting it turn Nymphs into Pillars and you balance based on the next most valuable skill in the game.

3)
I do not have a version. Those were sample calculations.
Furthermore this line was about comparing similar version. (The Summon 2 instantly or the Summon 3 instantly)

4)
You do remember why I start calculations on the unupped creature. Otherwise you lose track of how many upgrades are on either side of the equation.
Furthermore: Did you know that people tend to be unwilling to upgrade Nymphs due to their extreme rarity? The rarity and the lack of a downgrade option in PvP Duel makes upgrading a Nymph useless in unupped events. However Air Nymph is an exception to this rule. The reason is that the upgrade adds enough power to compensate for the lost opportunity. This implies that Air Nymph is granted a more powerful upgrade than is standard for the balance between unupped and upped.

5)
Gravity Nymph barely notices the -1 attack. However the opponent will surely notice the never ending (1 CC per turn or 1CC + 1 PC) flow of Black Holes. There is such a thing as an effect that is too powerful for EtG even if given a balanced cost. EtG has a threshold for the magnitude of effects that are appropriate. There will never be a "pay 75 and you win" card nor will we ever see a vanilla 1|1 for 1 again.

[waterzx]

If a creature's attack depends on HP of both sides, will it be useful in the game ?

Resonance Spirit | Mirror Spirit
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,37681.0.html

[OldTrees]

If a creature's attack depends on HP of both sides, will it be useful in the game ?

Resonance Spirit | Mirror Spirit
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,37681.0.html

If you are winning, Resonance Spirit gets weaker
If the opponent is winning, Resonance Spirit gets weaker
If you are tied Resonance Spirit gets stronger

Resonance Spirit acts like a tie breaker. It will have synergy with comeback cards. It will give Aether a new rush option. Yes it is useful to the game even if it is not Great.

[Pineapple]

Hm...I was thinking for those summoned by the upgraded card to be affected by all forms of CC by being a creature (with stats) in the permanent zone.

Note that Nymphs are just as expensive as Pharaoh and Anubis. In addition, Nymph abilities aren't all that powerful; an Anubis statue is surely better than a Turquoise statue.
As for Blue Nymph, I think that it only shows that 3 skills per turn from the 2nd turn onwards is a bit overpowered. However, summoning 2 doesn't really fit with summoning a legion...

Is a mechanic that summons 1 at the end of every turn for free balance-able, or does it need to be a timed permanent and/or a permanent with an ability cost? I've calculated that this permanent would cost 3/2 quanta (using your final cost as a basis for the effect's worth). Do you have a different conclusion for initial cost?

1) Being vulnerable to CC would be better on the unupped card. (Upgrades are better not worse)
2) Unstable Gas, Black Hole, Antimatter and Rage Potion are very nice.
3) The larger the legion desired, the higher the cost to summon.
4) A permanent that summons something worth 2-4 quanta + 1 card per turn is going to cost more than 3 quanta + 1 card.
5) I think we should think twice before making a permanent that generates a Black Hole casting statue per turn.

1) Cremation, Fractal, Mitosis, TU, and SoR all require targeting.
2) They also cost a hefty bit to use repeatably, which limits the impact of (initial) cost reduction. This is especially true for nymphs since you cannot remove an element from the equation since all nymphs have mono abilities.
3) This may not be true because of the delay. Assuming you activate all abilities once per turn, it takes 4 turns for my suggested version to match the capability of the your suggested version. In addition, the suggested version is much less reliable, since it can be destroyed before it stays out for 4 turns.
4) Assuming unit increase in ATK equals a unit increase in cost, an Air Nymph with 0 attack costs 2 quanta. In addition, you can only have 6 Air Nymphs in a deck.
5) I believe that the drastic decrease in or limit on damage potential upon the use of Stone Legion warrants the ability to field 6 Gravity Nymphs within 6 turns (6 turns assuming you don't need to wait for quanta to use its ability).

1)
Cremation + Stone Legion < Cremation + 0 cost Cremation Fodder.
Fractal + Stone Legion merely gives you an expensive 7th-12th copy of fractal fodder in the deck.
Mitosis + Stone Legion gives you a PC vulnerable version of Mitosis + Creature. (However it might require a large legion for a high cost to balance Stone Legion + Mitosis + SoR)
Twin Universe + Stone Legion would be balanced with Twin Universe + Creature assuming you balance Stone Legion
Shard of Readiness would be an additional cost to remove an element requirement. Additional costs deserve additional benefit
These suggestions reveal that they are additional benefits for additional costs. Being immune to CC is an additional benefit. It should have the additional cost of requiring the upgrade rather than have each of the listed synergies have to pay twice for the same benefit.

2)
The hefty cost is part of the reason why their skills are not valued at +8 quanta + 1 card or higher. I am not suggesting having Stone Legion cost more to get Nymph abilities than it costs Nymphs to get them. I am suggesting it cost the same as 0 attack versions of the Nymphs. OR I am suggesting it turn Nymphs into Pillars and you balance based on the next most valuable skill in the game.

3)
I do not have a version. Those were sample calculations.
Furthermore this line was about comparing similar version. (The Summon 2 instantly or the Summon 3 instantly)

4)
You do remember why I start calculations on the unupped creature. Otherwise you lose track of how many upgrades are on either side of the equation.
Furthermore: Did you know that people tend to be unwilling to upgrade Nymphs due to their extreme rarity? The rarity and the lack of a downgrade option in PvP Duel makes upgrading a Nymph useless in unupped events. However Air Nymph is an exception to this rule. The reason is that the upgrade adds enough power to compensate for the lost opportunity. This implies that Air Nymph is granted a more powerful upgrade than is standard for the balance between unupped and upped.

5)
Gravity Nymph barely notices the -1 attack. However the opponent will surely notice the never ending (1 CC per turn or 1CC + 1 PC) flow of Black Holes. There is such a thing as an effect that is too powerful for EtG even if given a balanced cost. EtG has a threshold for the magnitude of effects that are appropriate. There will never be a "pay 75 and you win" card nor will we ever see a vanilla 1|1 for 1 again.

1) Noted.
2) I disagree with what you suggest because of (4) and (5)
3) Then you should treat my (3) as a response to your (4). Assume "your suggested version" is the (balanced) "example" you suggested.
4) Even so, an unupgraded Air creature with the ability " : Unstable Gas" and 3 attack costs 8 quanta, so an unupgraded Air creature with the ability " : Unstable Gas" and 0 attack should cost 5 quanta. That's only twice the cost of the ability.
5) You completely missed the point. How do you expect to kill the opponent with 6 Amber Nymphs? Let's say you add 2 Stone Dragons for the finisher. That means that you only have a 53% chance to get out 2 Amber Nymphs instead of halving your damage potential by pulling only 1 Nymph and a useless Stone Dragon.