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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Forester Blowgun | Amazonian Blowgun https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=26761.msg341262#msg341262
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2011, 07:32:49 am »
Yes Neurotoxin is not original even if the vehicle is. I think that due to the other reasons listed in my previous post, Blowgun would be sufficiently more valuable if it did not use Neurotoxin that another mechanic should be discovered.
IMO, neurotoxin (as well as nightmare) is an interesting mechanic which deserve more than one card. It is a time related mechanic as well as normal poison is for death, freeze for water and mutation for entropy. The latest three have been used successfully more than once in various form in the present game. It is true that time also has the additional draw system but it has been used a lot already (see Snap | Snap Kopesh (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,25302.0.html)).
New CIA cards keep using known mechanics (sometimes in new form) in even if as you said new "mechanics would be drastically better to the point that suggesting a repeat of a mechanic is more redundant than would be desired". This is due to the fact that this new form is in itself a new mechanic. That what I think Blowgun is.
I generally agree with the content of your two comments but I think that neurotoxin (and nightmare see here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23363.0.html)) are among the mechanics which could benefit some more cards using them.
The more situational or specialized a mechanic, the more redundant repetition becomes. (Hence why Drawing and Venoms has been duplicated but not Neurotoxin)
Scavenger is a death mechanic and it has not been duplicated because it is more situational than poison.
A new vehicle mechanic (something that modifies a rider mechanic) is not a new rider mechanic.

In my opinion, Neurotoxin would benefit more from a similar indirect approach (none of your nightmare creatures cast nightmare) as you used for Nightmare rather than a direct repetition approach.
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Re: Forester Blowgun | Amazonian Blowgun https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=26761.msg341275#msg341275
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2011, 09:05:24 am »
The original idea was a blowgun: a weapon not inflicting damage but which could poison both creatures and players. The thing is that said blowgun seemed to be UP even with the lowest cost possible (1 :life | 1 :rainbow). I wanted to keep the original bases for the weapon (the vehicle) which I think was new and nice but make it more powerful. I then decided to use a different and a bit more powerful poison: neurotoxin. Doing I open new interaction and deck possibility without spoiling any of the existing strategies. So to avoid redundancy I needed another poison.

The comment made by SteppingStone81 about the fact that "curare is unfortunately not actually a neurotoxin (acts on muscles rather than nerves)" combined with the fact to be efficient the blowgun needed a more powerful poison lead me to a new idea and to a:

Card Rework.

What do you think now?

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Forester Blowgun | Amazonian Blowgun https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=26761.msg341460#msg341460
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2011, 05:28:28 pm »
Card Rework.

What do you think now?
That is a neat new type of poison. At a rough estimate it looks like it could cost a little less but being a really new idea it is hard to judge. What symbol would it show as? How would someone know they have neurotoxin and curare?
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Offline coinich

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Re: Forester Blowgun | Amazonian Blowgun https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=26761.msg341499#msg341499
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2011, 07:21:27 pm »
I'm assuming its global ability usage, as in any creature?

Re: Forester Blowgun | Amazonian Blowgun https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=26761.msg342441#msg342441
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2011, 01:30:35 am »
Card Rework.

What do you think now?
I like the card rework, especially this new type of poison.  The theme seems great for curare - both on creatures and on players.  Furthermore, a poison which increases on creatures when they trigger their abilities provides an interesting counter to growth, squids, demons, etc.

Question about the effect on players: when you say "Each time he activates an ability, the poison counter increase by one", does this mean triggering a permanent's ability, e.g. hourglass or pulverizer?

I have no idea how balanced such a poison will be at the current cost - UP?  OP?  I tried comparing this to arsenic, which passively deals 2|4 damage and 1 poison counter per hit for a cost of 2 :death, but it feels like comparing oranges and tomatoes - blowgun requires both :life and :time quanta, and its ability must be activated (which makes it useless on first turn it is played).

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Forester Blowgun | Amazonian Blowgun https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=26761.msg342553#msg342553
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2011, 07:05:44 am »
Card Rework.

What do you think now?
I like the card rework, especially this new type of poison.  The theme seems great for curare - both on creatures and on players.  Furthermore, a poison which increases on creatures when they trigger their abilities provides an interesting counter to growth, squids, demons, etc.

Question about the effect on players: when you say "Each time he activates an ability, the poison counter increase by one", does this mean triggering a permanent's ability, e.g. hourglass or pulverizer?

I have no idea how balanced such a poison will be at the current cost - UP?  OP?  I tried comparing this to arsenic, which passively deals 2|4 damage and 1 poison counter per hit for a cost of 2 :death, but it feels like comparing oranges and tomatoes - blowgun requires both :life and :time quanta, and its ability must be activated (which makes it useless on first turn it is played).
Arsenic:
2 :death|2 :death for 2|4 damage per turn, +1 poison per turn
Blowgun
3 :life|2 :life for 0|0 damage per turn,  :time:-1+1 poison per turn, Curare
3 :life|2 :life for -1|-1 damage per turn, +1 poison per turn, Absorb  :life, Curare  (rough equivalent value)
2 :life|2 :life for -2|-1 damage per turn, +1 poison per turn, Absorb  :life, Curare  (rough equivalent value)

There you go: Red Apples to Green Apples.
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Re: Forester Blowgun | Amazonian Blowgun https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=26761.msg343074#msg343074
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2011, 06:52:14 am »
That is a neat new type of poison. At a rough estimate it looks like it could cost a little less but being a really new idea it is hard to judge.
Thanks for the "neat" but also for the "really new idea". I needed someone to push me back to the wall.
Regarding the cost, I think it should not be too low because of the CC possibility (which with the new poison is now more efficient) and of the ability to bypass shields.

I like the card rework, especially this new type of poison.  The theme seems great for curare - both on creatures and on players.  Furthermore, a poison which increases on creatures when they trigger their abilities provides an interesting counter to growth, squids, demons, etc.
I'm glad you like it. I did it this way because of your previous comment on the topic. And me too, I like the fact that creatures also have a stronger impact with curare than with normal poison.

What symbol would it show as? How would someone know they have neurotoxin and curare?
I would put a green poison symbol. Regarding the use of both curare and neurotoxin I see 3 options (in order of preference):
    another symbol: violet = normal poison, purple = aflatoxin, yellow = neurotoxin, green = curare and blue = neurotoxin + curaremixed symbol: a half green half yellow symbol when you have both poisonsthere can be only one: the last injected poison gives the rules for the turn. If the last is neurotoxin the symbol stays yellow. If the last is curare it becomes green. (this solution is less fun IMO).
Question about the effect on players: when you say "Each time he activates an ability, the poison counter increase by one", does this mean triggering a permanent's ability, e.g. hourglass or pulverizer?
I'm assuming its global ability usage, as in any creature?
Right, a global ability usage as in any creature (even those already infected) and any permanent.

I have no idea how balanced such a poison will be at the current cost - UP?  OP?  I tried comparing this to arsenic, which passively deals 2|4 damage and 1 poison counter per hit for a cost of 2 :death, but it feels like comparing oranges and tomatoes - blowgun requires both :life and :time quanta, and its ability must be activated (which makes it useless on first turn it is played).
Arsenic:
2 :death|2 :death for 2|4 damage per turn, +1 poison per turn
Blowgun
3 :life|2 :life for 0|0 damage per turn,  :time:-1+1 poison per turn, Curare
3 :life|2 :life for -1|-1 damage per turn, +1 poison per turn, Absorb  :life, Curare  (rough equivalent value)
2 :life|2 :life for -2|-1 damage per turn, +1 poison per turn, Absorb  :life, Curare  (rough equivalent value)

There you go: Red Apples to Green Apples.
To me it looks more like red oranges and green tomatoes.
I don't know if the comparison with arsenic has any value here. I would rather compare it with chrysaora.

Thanks for all these constructive comments, guys. It looks good now. I will probably submit it to crucible soon.

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Re: Forester Blowgun | Amazonian Blowgun https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=26761.msg343083#msg343083
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2011, 07:24:34 am »
I have no idea how balanced such a poison will be at the current cost - UP?  OP?  I tried comparing this to arsenic, which passively deals 2|4 damage and 1 poison counter per hit for a cost of 2 :death, but it feels like comparing oranges and tomatoes - blowgun requires both :life and :time quanta, and its ability must be activated (which makes it useless on first turn it is played).
Arsenic:
2 :death|2 :death for 2|4 damage per turn, +1 poison per turn
Blowgun
3 :life|2 :life for 0|0 damage per turn,  :time:-1+1 poison per turn, Curare
3 :life|2 :life for -1|-1 damage per turn, +1 poison per turn, Absorb  :life, Curare  (rough equivalent value)
2 :life|2 :life for -2|-1 damage per turn, +1 poison per turn, Absorb  :life, Curare  (rough equivalent value)

There you go: Red Apples to Green Apples.
To me it looks more like red oranges and green tomatoes.
I don't know if the comparison with arsenic has any value here. I would rather compare it with chrysaora.

Thanks for all these constructive comments, guys. It looks good now. I will probably submit it to crucible soon.
Good point. Coming right up:
Chysaora
1 :water|1 :water for 0|2 damage per turn,  :death:+1 poison per turn, Creature
Blowgun
3 :life|2 :life for 0|0 damage per turn,  :time:+1 poison per turn, Permanent, Weapon Slot, Curare
6 :life|5 :life for 0|0 damage per turn,  :time:+1 poison per turn, Permanent, Curare (roughly)
6 :life|7 :life for 0|2 damage per turn,  :time:+1 poison per turn, Permanent, Curare (equivalent)
4 :life|4 :life for 0|2 damage per turn,  :time:+1 poison per turn, Creature, Curare (value)

So Apples to Apples
Chysaora
1 :water|1 :water for 0|2 damage per turn,  :death:+1 poison per turn, Creature
Blowgun proxy
4 :life|4 :life for 0|2 damage per turn,  :time:+1 poison per turn, Creature, Curare
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Re: Forester Blowgun | Amazonian Blowgun https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=26761.msg343086#msg343086
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2011, 07:38:02 am »
So Apples to Apples
Chysaora
1 :water|1 :water for 0|2 damage per turn,  :death:+1 poison per turn, Creature
Blowgun proxy
4 :life|4 :life for 0|2 damage per turn,  :time:+1 poison per turn, Creature, Curare
What does that mean exactly? Do I have to increase the cost? Remember that the upped chrysaora has improved stats ...

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Forester Blowgun | Amazonian Blowgun https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=26761.msg343093#msg343093
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2011, 07:56:51 am »
So Apples to Apples
Chysaora
1 :water|1 :water for 0|2 damage per turn,  :death:+1 poison per turn, Creature
Blowgun proxy
4 :life|4 :life for 0|2 damage per turn,  :time:+1 poison per turn, Creature, Curare
What does that mean exactly? Do I have to increase the cost? Remember that the upped chrysaora has improved stats ...
It is a descriptive statement comparing two distinct cards by using previous balance theory to equalize as many of the variables as possible.
Blowgun costs more (~3q|3q more from Chyrsaora's point of view) but has a better poison.
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Re: Forester Blowgun | Amazonian Blowgun https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=26761.msg343096#msg343096
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2011, 07:59:43 am »
It is a descriptive statement comparing two distinct cards by using previous balance theory to equalize as many of the variables as possible.
Blowgun costs more (~3q|3q more from Chyrsaora's point of view) but has a better poison.
So the cost can stay as it is ... 3 :life for a better poison and the ability to CC sounds fair to me.

 

blarg: