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Offline ZephyrPhantomTopic starter

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Venerated Drake | Exalted Dragon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47342.msg1047120#msg1047120
« on: March 01, 2013, 09:27:14 pm »
NAME:
Venerated Drake
ELEMENT:
Light
COST:
6 :light
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
4 | 4
TEXT:
Reverence:  Venerated Drake gains +1 | +1 for every creature you have in play, up to +5 | +5.
NAME:
Exalted Dragon
ELEMENT:
Light
COST:
5 :light
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
4 | 4
TEXT:
Reverence:  Exalted Dragon gains +1 | +1 for every creature you have in play, up to +5 | +5.

ART:
shadow303
IDEA:
Zblader
NOTES:
Today will be illuminating -- even enlightening.
Lead your allies to victory today; your courage will show them the way.

A powerful midhitter for Light that gets stronger for each allied creature you play on the field; the more followers it has, the greater its strength grows from their support.
It can be the possible 'leader' of a Swarm or Fractal deck; even if your board is almost filled or you've used up all your Fractals this card still proves to be useful by turning from a midhitter into a powerful beatstick.
SERIES:


Spoiler for Hidden:


NAME:
Venerated Drake
ELEMENT:
Light
COST:
7 :light
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
4 | 4
TEXT:
Reverence: Venerated Drake gains +1 | +1 for every creature you have in play, up to +5 | +5.
NAME:
Exalted Dragon
ELEMENT:
Light
COST:
6 :light
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
4 | 4
TEXT:
Reverence: Venerated Drake gains +1 | +1 for every creature you have in play, up to +5 | +5.

ART:
shadow303
IDEA:
Zblader
NOTES:
Today will be illuminating -- even enlightening.
Lead your allies to victory today; your courage will show them the way.

A powerful midhitter for Light that gets stronger for each allied creature you play on the field; the more followers it has, the greater its strength grows from their support.
It can be the possible 'leader' of a Swarm or Fractal deck; even if your board is almost filled or you've used up all your Fractals this card still proves to be useful by turning from a midhitter into a powerful beatstick.

While it can grow stronger than Archangel, the two cards play very different roles - Archangel is a control beatstick that stalls and combo decks will favor due to the Heal ability and Exalted Dragon is a finisher that swarm decks prefer for better overall stats in exchange for no creature healing.
SERIES:


NAME:
Venerated Drake
ELEMENT:
Light
COST:
7 :light
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
6 | 6
TEXT:
Reverence:
Venerated Drake gains
+1 | +1 for every creature you have in play.
NAME:
Exalted Dragon
ELEMENT:
Light
COST:
6 :light
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
6 | 6
TEXT:
Reverence:
Exalted Dragon gains
+1 | +1 for every creature you have in play.

ART:
shadow303
IDEA:
Zblader
NOTES:
Today will be illuminating -- even enlightening.
Lead your allies to victory today; your courage will show them the way.

A powerful midhitter for Light that gets stronger for each allied creature you play on the field; the more followers it has, the greater its strength grows from their support.
It can be the possible 'leader' of a Swarm or Fractal deck; even if your board is almost filled or you've used up all your Fractals this card still proves to be useful by turning from a midhitter into a powerful beatstick.
SERIES:

« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 10:13:07 pm by Zblader »

Offline Joseph7

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Re: Venerated Drake | Exalted Dragon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47342.msg1047187#msg1047187
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2013, 12:12:22 am »
I like this card's simple yet effective mechanic. I suggest lowering the card's beginning stats to 5|5, however, since its ability makes it so strong so quickly.

Offline Drake_XIV

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Re: Venerated Drake | Exalted Dragon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47342.msg1047192#msg1047192
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2013, 12:20:00 am »
Same problem I see I had with a previous version of Starlit Wyrm.  Fractal.

Consider RoL/Hope, this would be a much stronger replacement as a finisher.

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Re: Venerated Drake | Exalted Dragon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47342.msg1047215#msg1047215
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2013, 01:05:51 am »
Same problem I see I had with a previous version of Starlit Wyrm.  Fractal.

Consider RoL/Hope, this would be a much stronger replacement as a finisher.

Specially if you consider that you can fractal the Drake with the tons of light quanta from the RoLs
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Offline furballdn

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Re: Venerated Drake | Exalted Dragon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47342.msg1047234#msg1047234
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2013, 02:39:08 am »
Haven't we seen this idea pop up many times? It's also been shot down many times, and it's the same reason: RoL and fractal. Making it :light only makes it worse. Compare:

Same cost, but will almost always be worse than your card, even your unupped version, not to mention how broken it will get with fractal and RoL.

Offline ZephyrPhantomTopic starter

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Re: Venerated Drake | Exalted Dragon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47342.msg1047696#msg1047696
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2013, 02:48:33 pm »
The idea may have appeared before, but I feel that two issues come up with cards like these that tackle an 'OP synergy':

1) People tend to 'overplay' the synergy in question, leading to focus on the power of one specific 'combo' ( See this post on Shard Remnant )
2) People don't give the idea a chance to be balanced - (Starlit Wyrm's 'boost cap' is a very good way of balancing Reverence-type abilities, but the thread seems to have died before it could take hold.)

That being said, I agree that the RoL/Hope synergy is stronger than I first thought it to be - the best path for a nerf seems to be a combination of the above-mentioned 'boost cap' and a nerf to stats. How does the following card sound?
Quote from: Exalted Dragon v2
Venerated Wyrm | Exalted Dragon
7 :light | 6 :light
4 | 4
Reverence: Venerated Drake gains +1 | +1 for every creature you have in play, up to +5 | +5.

Offline Marsu

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Re: Venerated Drake | Exalted Dragon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47342.msg1047697#msg1047697
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2013, 02:51:12 pm »
^
That is way better. Could even cost 1  :light less though.

Offline ZephyrPhantomTopic starter

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Re: Venerated Drake | Exalted Dragon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47342.msg1047706#msg1047706
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2013, 03:36:23 pm »
Card updated:
Quote
Venerated Wyrm | Exalted Dragon
7 :light | 6 :light
4 | 4
Reverence: Venerated Drake gains +1 | +1 for every creature you have in play, up to +5 | +5.

^
That is way better. Could even cost 1  :light less though.
Seeing as I've left the card with potential to have better stats than Archangel (6 :light for 9 | 9 vs 6 :light for 7 | 7 + heal),  I'm not so sure if it should be cheaper. Are there any reasons that this should cost 6 | 5 :light ?

Offline Marsu

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Re: Venerated Drake | Exalted Dragon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47342.msg1047710#msg1047710
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2013, 03:48:35 pm »
Well, this either gains stats very slowly, or loses them in an instant if you fuel it with RoL's and the enemy has AoE, Otyugh, or the like. 9/9 vs 7/7 + heal is just slightly better, but that's already the best case for this dragon. It wouldn't be totally up though the way it is atm.

Offline Drake_XIV

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Re: Venerated Drake | Exalted Dragon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47342.msg1047734#msg1047734
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2013, 06:02:54 pm »
I still think this treads on Archangel too much...

Offline ZephyrPhantomTopic starter

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Re: Venerated Drake | Exalted Dragon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47342.msg1048120#msg1048120
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2013, 10:35:48 pm »
Changed card cost to 6 :light | 5 :light for both balance and niche reasons, as I'll explain below:

Cards can be very close to each other in role but still play very differently.

Compare and

Despite both being Fire-Element 'unkillable midhitters', one is more rushy and combos with Immolation while the other is a dedicated beatstick that encourages :fire / :light duos.
It's difficult to compare Minor Phoenix to Seraph in the upgraded enviroment because the two cards are now playing completely different roles. (Seraph remains the midhitter beatstick while Minor Phoenix is now an Immorush weenie.)
To separate them further, Seraph and Phoenix have different casting costs to split them into different cost niches. (A more subtle example of how casting costs affect card roles is Giant Frog and Cockatrice - one is the signature rush weenie while the other adds support with its extra toughness).

With Exalted Dragon's new cost, Light's midhitter lineup looks like this:



Against Archangel, Exalted Dragon tends to be less efficient in non-swarm decks - it usually won't come out at full strength and lacks the Heal ability to protect it against CC; in fact, Exalted Dragon has an increased weakness to CC since you can kill ally creatures to make it weaker. As a result, Archangel would still see play for having a more stable/combo-potential 'body' than Exalted Dragon does. At 5 :light , however, Dragon begins to compete more directly with Crusader instead of Archangel as a midhitter, with the difference being more clear: Crusader is a combo/duo-favoring card that encourages weapon decks while Exalted Dragon is a beatdown card that encourages swarm decks.

The result is that each card gets its own role:
Pegasus : Aggressive Dive Creature, most rushy of the 4 in exchange for restriction to :air .
Crusader : Mostly duo creature that encourages mono decks.
Exalted Dragon : Conditional mono creature that is extra-weak to CC.
Archangel : Resilient hitter that plays best in control decks and doesn't suffer the weaknesses of any of the other cards.

Offline Hyroen

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Re: Venerated Drake | Exalted Dragon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47342.msg1048121#msg1048121
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2013, 10:44:02 pm »
Though I don't see anything that is wrong with the card and it's good that you've made an admirable attempt to solve issues, I just don't see a swarming beatstick in :light Light as being something innovative and something that expands the boundaries of the game.

Nice idea though, but questionably placed in :light Light.
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