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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Quantum Soldier | Quantum Warrior https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21218.msg276122#msg276122
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2011, 05:29:07 am »
My point was that this card makes Other rush faster than Fire.

I dont think thats true. What else could "other" do with six 2/1s. I dont really view that as a rush deck. and as soon as you add another element then the fact that this card costs random qaunta would imped your ability to be consistently fast.

Further more its a 2/1 creature. its not exactly super threatening. then moving up to the upgrade card its further debilitating to quanta consistency.
Quantum Pillars produce quanta 3 times as fast right?
What is your reason for having Other get cheaper creatures than Elements do?
What is your reason for rainbows to get cheaper creatures than monos/duos/trios?
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Re: Quantum Soldier | Quantum Warrior https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21218.msg276130#msg276130
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2011, 05:48:34 am »
Quantum Pillars produce quanta 3 times as fast right?
What is your reason for having Other get cheaper creatures than Elements do?
What is your reason for rainbows to get cheaper creatures than monos/duos/trios?
First, others not an element its just other I dont think you should be reffering to it as its own. A deck would have to be atrocious to lose to a deck of only "other" cards . meaning your 3x pillars (as of now) could only be used to cast these simple creatures and simple weapons.

Second pretty much every element has a creature better then this. Ash eater, Horned frog, the new dragon fly and gnome, Physalia, mind flayer, antlion, graviton gaurd, scarab, poision, bloodsucker, devourer, you could maybe argue quantum soldiers better then photon/rol, Phase spider, and a few other but even thats situational and the stats or ability makes up for the lack of speed. so only really unupped gravity and aether maybe light, could be "speed up" by this but I dont think a vanilla 2/1 would help either of those elements out.

third, that leaves me to think that adding a vanilla other creature like this is adding diversity to the game. The choice is, using the superiority of a focus element creature of have the flexibility of a worse "other" creature for multi element decks.

edit:
So maybe the speeding up is in the way that you could add these guys to mono other elements (which defeats the quatum pillar/tower argument somewhat) I guess you could say that.

but really what kinda supersedes all these arguements is that its a vanilla 2/1 or 4/3. I dont think it would impact the games enviroment very much. I dont really think this would help many decks out that much and would probably be a card which is more favored by new players and players with smaller collections. I mean is there any weenie rush builds where this card would catapult it up a tier?

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Quantum Soldier | Quantum Warrior https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21218.msg276143#msg276143
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2011, 06:14:32 am »
Quantum Pillars produce quanta 3 times as fast right?
What is your reason for having Other get cheaper creatures than Elements do?
What is your reason for rainbows to get cheaper creatures than monos/duos/trios?
First, others not an element its just other I dont think you should be reffering to it as its own. A deck would have to be atrocious to lose to a deck of only "other" cards . meaning your 3x pillars (as of now) could only be used to cast these simple creatures and simple weapons.

Second pretty much every element has a creature better then this. Ash eater, Horned frog, the new dragon fly and gnome, Physalia, mind flayer, antlion, graviton gaurd, scarab, poision, bloodsucker, devourer, you could maybe argue quantum soldiers better then photon/rol, Phase spider, and a few other but even thats situational and the stats or ability makes up for the lack of speed. so only really unupped gravity and aether maybe light, could be "speed up" by this but I dont think a vanilla 2/1 would help either of those elements out.

third, that leaves me to think that adding a vanilla other creature like this is adding diversity to the game. The choice is, using the superiority of a focus element creature of have the flexibility of a worse "other" creature for multi element decks.

edit:
So maybe the speeding up is in the way that you could add these guys to mono other elements (which defeats the quatum pillar/tower argument somewhat) I guess you could say that.

but really what kinda supersedes all these arguements is that its a vanilla 2/1 or 4/3. I dont think it would impact the games enviroment very much. I dont really think this would help many decks out that much and would probably be a card which is more favored by new players and players with smaller collections. I mean is there any weenie rush builds where this card would catapult it up a tier?

First, other is not an element it is a quanta type and a type of quanta production. Hence cards using it need to be balanced based upon the quanta type and available producers of that quanta type. Try a flying bow deck supplemented with SoG and SoDs. Now we both agree that other should get a creature. The question would be what creature would be a balanced addition to that deck.

Second, every creature has a creature that is better unless you remember the speed at which the quanta is produced. I can assume feet and meters are the same length. That will not make it so.

Third, a vanilla other creature is a good idea. That does not justify it being more powerful than mono elements. If you are trying to make a duo creature you probably are using the wrong quanta type. :rainbow is used for rainbows.

Just because a card is small does not justify it being unbalanced. Just because a card's unbalance would not have a large effect does not mean that given the opportunity it should not be corrected.

Another point to remember is this can also be used on leftover quanta from unusable quanta sources like Nova or Immolation.

As for the viability of mono other: If a creature is added to other it is likely to not be added alone.
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Offline ZephyrPhantom

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Re: Quantum Soldier | Quantum Warrior https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21218.msg276333#msg276333
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2011, 04:28:43 pm »
Further more its a 2/1 creature. its not exactly super threatening. then moving up to the upgrade card its further debilitating to quanta consistency.
What about this?

First, others not an element its just other I dont think you should be reffering to it as its own. A deck would have to be atrocious to lose to a deck of only "other" cards . meaning your 3x pillars (as of now) could only be used to cast these simple creatures and simple weapons. As more cards get splashed into the card pool, mono Other becomes more and more of a real possibility. Currently you can actually have a mono Other deck using Animate Weapon, SoGs, and Weapons.

Second pretty much every element has a creature better then this. Ash eater, Horned frog, the new dragon fly and gnome, Physalia, mind flayer, antlion, graviton gaurd, scarab, poision, bloodsucker, devourer, you could maybe argue quantum soldiers better then photon/rol, Phase spider, and a few other but even thats situational and the stats or ability makes up for the lack of speed. so only really unupped gravity and aether maybe light, could be "speed up" by this but I dont think a vanilla 2/1 would help either of those elements out. Ash Eater is the closest thing to this card, but this card is cheaper by 1/3 :rainbow quanta.  The upgraded version instead of going for quanta generation becomes a creature that is much more effective than giant frog, especially if Nova is used.

third, that leaves me to think that adding a vanilla other creature like this is adding diversity to the game. The choice is, using the superiority of a focus element creature of have the flexibility of a worse "other" creature for multi element decks. I am currently entering a very similar card, Lizardman | Lizardman (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21211.0.html), for a CCC competition. You may want to read up on that.
but really what kinda supersedes all these arguements is that its a vanilla 2/1 or 4/3. I dont think it would impact the games enviroment very much. I dont really think this would help many decks out that much and would probably be a card which is more favored by new players and players with smaller collections. I mean is there any weenie rush builds where this card would catapult it up a tier?  Problem here is that this could set up for a Fractal Nova Rush. Seeing as how quick Frogs can come out, this could possibly get out even faster.

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Re: Quantum Soldier | Quantum Warrior https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21218.msg276645#msg276645
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2011, 11:39:22 pm »
ug Ive been spending more time in the forum then playing the game lol or ftl?
What about this?

1) as more cards from other elements get added it dilutes the q tower is 3x better argument. at least in regards to constancy and speed.

the mono other deck you reffer to doesnt seem more effective then anything an element could do. I mean whata you end up with six 6/6 gavals that require 2 cards each to cast? SoG is a whole other can of worms I dont really want to get started on. imo sog is a totally degenerate card for the game because it fits into almost any deck with no superior in element options.

2) your guys'  :rainbow = x3 isnt absolute its practical. It kinda drives me crazy when you refer to it. to many assumptions. As soon as you introduce any cards from other elements its foundations change. The argument about nova equals 2 :entropy = 24 :rainbow is much more impacting to me then the q pillar x3 any  :underworld.

I was responding to the pillar statement not nova. When you analyze quanta pillar and "other" cards vs pretty much any other(no pun) element and its respective cards. the true elements come out on top with speed, effectiveness, and quality of creature.

3) Seen your lizard. made a comment days ago.

4) yeah i think your right fractal nova rush would be the most threatening contingent. thanks for bringing it up. I would like to see a deck list of what you think would be effective tho. Even tho it might be an impressive combo, it still seems rather fragile to me. with many decks being able to respond. its a 3 card combo that with enough aether produces eight 2/1s or (with two novas {4 cards}) eight 4/3s. the 2/1s seem pretty manageable your only generating 16 points of damage. and you could play one phase dragon and be in a pretty similar standing (arguably better). take a dragon and add arsenic or discord and your using 2 cards for a comparable advantage. or why not fractal ash eater immolation stay in the fire family and have access to defrag and firebolt.

The 4/3s really seem more problematic. in the sense of use with nova and fractal. but in terms of a 4/3 for 4 :underworld using q pillars vs what the other(nopun) elements can do....

Its all curious to me really. Id like to see how devastating that "other" deck could really be. Supernova really seems like the catalyst not the q pillars.
------------ any who
you might notice I like playing devil advocate. Im not even very partial to this card. But I dont might debating it out. I just dont see it as as much of a problem as was being stated.
Im new to elements so i might be missing somethings. but then again i might have some insight to share. ive been playing games and card games forever. And Game design/balance is a huge interest of mine. I think i have a pretty good grasp on it


Offline OldTrees

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Re: Quantum Soldier | Quantum Warrior https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21218.msg276662#msg276662
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2011, 12:01:58 am »
Okay, you seem to not share the basic premises about the game that I hold.

Let us try a different approach:
Is Parasite balanced?
Is Blood Sucker balanced?
Is Tower Shield balanced?
Is Titanium Shield balanced?
If 4 yes answers then QED, :rainbow is less expensive than quanta of a element hence the balanced cost in :rainbow is higher.
(I want clarification that all four are balanced before I take the time to type up the proof)


PS: Your Supernova example was off terribly.
1) You misrepresented the cost of supernova as 2 :entropy. It is actually (1 deck slot, 1 draw, 2 stock :entropy, 1 upgrade and minor other costs like increased Black Hole risk)
2) You misrepresented the benefit of supernova as 24 :rainbow. It is actually [and we both know this I am just stating it for completeness] 2 of  :aether :air :darkness :death :earth :fire :gravity :life :light :time :water.

PPS: While I could take the time to defend my entire theory from its first premise, I am not going to. I will not appease the devil's advocate position if it goes that deep without a competing theory. The above post shows the point I am willing to start at.
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Re: Quantum Soldier | Quantum Warrior https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21218.msg276811#msg276811
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2011, 03:13:43 am »
Okay, you seem to not share the basic premises about the game that I hold.

Let us try a different approach:
Is Parasite balanced?
Is Blood Sucker balanced?
Is Tower Shield balanced?
Is Titanium Shield balanced?
If 4 yes answers then QED, :rainbow is less expensive than quanta of a element hence the balanced cost in :rainbow is higher.
(I want clarification that all four are balanced before I take the time to type up the proof)
cant really anwser this. is x balanced isnt exactly clear question. A card doesnt really have balance on its own. balance belongs to the game. Do i think elements is perfect? no. Do i think its fun and intriguing? yes.

I havnt really played with tower shield. but I guess I could answer from my experience all those cards seem to fit in the game fairly. they all have different power levels and more or less potential for abuse. Tower shields value seems more thematic collection development based.

PS: Your Supernova example was off terribly.
1) You misrepresented the cost of supernova as 2 :entropy. It is actually (1 deck slot, 1 draw, 2 stock :entropy, 1 upgrade and minor other costs like increased Black Hole risk)
2) You misrepresented the benefit of supernova as 24 :rainbow. It is actually [and we both know this I am just stating it for completeness] 2 of  :aether :air :darkness :death :earth :fire :gravity :life :light :time :water.
Im not misrepresenting anything. your just bringing up more details/ analysis of the card. "off terribly" ? pft cant you just say you want to add something or that i missed something.

I find it odd you bring this up because supernova is the one area that I agree with you guys on. ie "other" cards
can gain an extreme speed boost from this. I mean do you disagree that if your talking about generic quantum cast abuse the power of nova isnt stronger then Quantum tower? I guess its situation but one novas like having a q tower out for 7 turns. (ie situation like first turn if you cant cast nova then q towers better)

Supernova is one of the stronger cards in the current meta. just look at its usage rate. why? because it fixes one of the troubling areas of elements and thats stabilizing resources. for a game where every element has strengths and weaknesses nova allows you to blend multi elements better then most other options. (sometimes at least* more on this later)



To respond more on the brought up comparison to ash eater. I think your claims are simplifying and not absolutely true.

I mean oldtrees saying "My point was that this card makes Other rush faster than Fire."

and then Zblader says "Ash Eater is the closest thing to this card, but this card is cheaper by 1/3 :rainbow quanta."

here both of you are both somewhat wrong because your ignoring that ash eater is strictly cheaper then q soldier. "Other" can cast ash eater for less then q soldier. (sure ash eater doesnt fit into the fractel nova combo but its still often cheaper). nova can cast 2 ash eaters and have 22 resources left. vs, 2 q soldier leaving 20 resources and the potential you cant cast a 2 :underworld card on subsequent turns.

Yes I concede that under certain circumstance one q tower can cast q soldiers faster then then one fire tower could cast ash eaters. First off its not that much faster second you need to have the cards to do it. ie first turn 2 q towers casting 3 s soldiers vs 2 fire towers casting 2 ash eaters.

Then you have to look at the disadvantage of using q towers. they reduce your ability to consistently cast cards of other elements. where as using nova or element towers give you the control of casting particular cards. ie a ash eater is always going to be playable in a deck with fire towers. a ash eater isnt always going to be playable with q towers. q towers disadvantage is compounded by the casting cost of cards. 1,2 cc cards are easily splash able and are more easily cast by q towers and nova. then the greater the card the harder it gets to cast consistently.

So it seemed to me you guys were basing your argument on that "other" gets x3 quanta form q towers. But "other" has relatively few cards. and the power level of those cards is not to profound on its own. you need an element to have real strength in this game. q towers and novas can only really cast cards with 1 or 2 :underworld cost consistently above that and your consistency diminishes (this is dynamic tho as say 2 novas can cast a 4 :underworld card they can not cast 2 copies of that card). So based on this I claim (especially for a rush deck) that a deck using only q towers or novas has to limit its access of cards from other elements that have 1-4 cc.

the strength of using fire towers (or playing fire) is that you can consistently use the strength of that element and/or use its power cards.

Id argue that in Zbladers fractal combo example your not playing "other" but rather your playing aether. Your using a 9 :aether card you had better be able to have access to that consistently if your a rush deck. to consistantly get to 9  :aether your better off using something other then q towers.

What quantum soldier really is is the access of a 2/1 creature for all the elements. And when your looking at in terms of strength in the other elements you cant just cite quantum tower for cost evaluations. and in this way the soldier costs 2 while the ash eater 1. in this way Quantum soldier is not making other elements rush faster then fire. In fact it potentially increase fires ability to rush because fire could use q soldier itself.

But were not done. Next you gotta examine creature quality. a 2/1 for 2 isnt a quality creature (i cited my examples in a previous post). Life has the much better frog 3/3 or 5/3 for 2 :life. if you were trying to  make a better rush deck why not try to add frog instead of q soldier? the main reason would be you dont have a stable quanta base that could sport this. So here your sacrificing creature quality.  I claim that life has some of the most cost effective rush creatures. so does life become better at rushing if quantum soldier gets added to the game? not exactly. if life wanted to splash for a 2/1 creature it could potentially use ash eater at a cheaper cost.

so is the 2/1 unupped quantum soldier better then ash eater? yes, in some circumstances it is better then ash eater; nova fractal combo, multi element decks, decks that you need fire qaunta for something else

But that doesnt mean its strictly better? no.

Ash Eaters can be still better then q soldier; mono fire, or splashed in duo and trio element decks, or in nova/multi element decks where you need control of which quanta you use.

They fill different roles.

ug shall we talk more about the 4/3? :S [/end_rant]

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Re: Quantum Soldier | Quantum Warrior https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21218.msg276833#msg276833
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2011, 03:48:14 am »
Okay, you seem to not share the basic premises about the game that I hold.

Let us try a different approach:
Is Parasite balanced?
Is Blood Sucker balanced?
Is Tower Shield balanced?
Is Titanium Shield balanced?
If 4 yes answers then QED, :rainbow is less expensive than quanta of a element hence the balanced cost in :rainbow is higher.
(I want clarification that all four are balanced before I take the time to type up the proof)
cant really anwser this. is x balanced isnt exactly clear question. A card doesnt really have balance on its own. balance belongs to the game. Do i think elements is perfect? no. Do i think its fun and intriguing? yes.

I havnt really played with tower shield. but I guess I could answer from my experience all those cards seem to fit in the game fairly. they all have different power levels and more or less potential for abuse. Tower shields value seems more thematic collection development based.
Balanced to the standard or average that is the game ETG. Since you did not say any of those was unbalanced I will assume they are balanced.

1st) Parasite vs Bloodsucker
In this example we see an upgrade worth +2atk. (The only difference other than the upgrade)
This can be converted into 2 elemental quanta using the attack correlation with vanilla creature costs.
Examining all the upgrades in depth we get an average of a 1.5 elemental quanta upgrade with almost all being 1-2 elemental quanta. (very small variance)

2nd) Titanium Shield vs Tower Shield
Here the example is a little more complex. The costs are in  :earth and :rainbow respectively and Tower Shield is an upgraded card.
Substituting 1-2 elemental quanta in the place of the upgrade we have:
5 :earth +3 :earth vs 5 :rainbow +3 :earth +2 :earth. (note all duplicate costs like 1 draw have been removed for simplicity except for the unique cost reduction of 3 elemental quanta due to it being a shield)
So 8 :earth = 5 :rainbow +5 :earth
So the ratio of  :earth to :rainbow to at an equivalant of 8 :earth is 3 :earth: 5 :rainbow
Or in other words 8 :earth=13 :rainbow.

3rd) I combine this result with the 1 :earth=3 :rainbow derived from Tower entering play effects. (I think you will understand this without calculations)

4th) Combine the 2 points and hope it is a linear function because it is hard to find perfect comparisons with other cards.
So:
1 :earth = 3 :rainbow
8 :earth = 13 :rainbow
Hence the equation:
(11/7) + (10/7) [Elemental Quanta] = [Other Quanta]
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Agroagro

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Re: Quantum Soldier | Quantum Warrior https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21218.msg276849#msg276849
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2011, 04:24:21 am »
See I didnt even know your talking about about the cost comparisons between similar functions. I dont really think this is all about math.

Parasite vs bloodsucker; 3/1 for 2 is a creature the developer feels fits darkness is as much an explanation as the math. unless this was a constant among all 1/1 creature the math doesnt really prove alot. different cards in all the elements have different power increases for upgrade. +2/0 for zero is common but there are some that are just +1/0 others are +2/+3, +1/+1, 0/+1 there isnt some exact science. it seems more instict based. It seemed to me the developer balanced the upped cards as a game. the unupped is just a slower version of the game more suitable to new players.

1 :earth = 3 :rainbow
8 :earth = 13 :rainbow
Hence the equation:
(11/7) + (10/7) [Elemental Quanta] = [Other Quanta]
I dont really follow when you use these equations.  :earth has no ratio to :rainbow. Towershield exists because the developer wanted a simple shield effect available to all. its more of a new player card. Everyone else is going to use actual shields. the cost of tower shield has very little baring on the balance of the game. tho is reflects how valuable the developer feels reducing 2 damage is for all the colors that dont have it and to multi-element decks. I  doubt he calculated the cost simply based of q tower and supernova.

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Re: Quantum Soldier | Quantum Warrior https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21218.msg276866#msg276866
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2011, 04:45:49 am »
See I didnt even know your talking about about the cost comparisons between similar functions. I dont really think this is all about math.
Then here is your problem. All card games that use numbers are balanced by variables. In ETG there are good theories about those variables. I told you I wasn't going to take the time to defend the entire premise of card cost theory to you here. Go read up on it from the link in my signature. If you do not have a mathematical model for balancing then any reasonable accurate model is an improvement.
Out of the 136+ creatures analyzed only 19 did not match the formula. On most of these the community had huge agreement like on Graboid.

You may use intuition if you want. Just understand that some of us have does lots of inductive logic to create a working model.

PS: Zanz has too good of a track record to be using intuition alone. Although he has not given us his card cost theory, we can still try to isolate it from the data available.
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Agroagro

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Re: Quantum Soldier | Quantum Warrior https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21218.msg276930#msg276930
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2011, 08:01:34 am »
Balance in strategy games isnt always a math equation. tic tac toe and chess arnt for everyone.

almost all games like this have a foundation in some sort. that becomes apprent fairly quickly. but thats not all its about. and cant always make cards that like that. Games have to be dynamic and thats where you start breaking rules.

ive already had a look at that thread in your signature. When I hear you say things like "Out of the 136+ creatures analyzed only 19 did not match the formula." I cant help but think your guys are doing it wrong. theres like 80 some creatures in the game. not counting animated weapons. your comparing upgrade variables so if 19 dont match thats like 20-25%. (you shouldnt even really be counting cards like the nymphs). and thats ignoring that the game should really be mainly balanced of the upgraded or strictly better cards. then you should have the creatures in clusters based off their in game role, element, and element role.

Hey im not trying to take away from the work youve done. I think its probably pretty sound in alot of situations. But it shouldnt just be a snap answer to say oh this doesnt match my CC model. it has to be changed.

Back to this thread topic

Im still not convinced that that 2/1 for 2 breaks anything in the game. the more I talk about it the more i think it would be fine in game. Youve thrown some numbers back but no real argument. You cant say a 2/1 for 2 breaks game balance because of parsite and a couple shields (well i wont buy it).

or maybe show me the decks that you think would abuse this 2/1 maybe that will convince me.

Like what would you propose the the 2/1 cost? 3? cause I dont see where thats going to fit in the game except for maybe fractal/nova combo

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Re: Quantum Soldier | Quantum Warrior https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21218.msg276986#msg276986
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2011, 12:42:32 pm »
Balance in strategy games isnt always a math equation. tic tac toe and chess arnt for everyone.

almost all games like this have a foundation in some sort. that becomes apprent fairly quickly. but thats not all its about. and cant always make cards that like that. Games have to be dynamic and thats where you start breaking rules.

ive already had a look at that thread in your signature. When I hear you say things like "Out of the 136+ creatures analyzed only 19 did not match the formula." I cant help but think your guys are doing it wrong. theres like 80 some creatures in the game. not counting animated weapons. your comparing upgrade variables so if 19 dont match thats like 20-25%. (you shouldnt even really be counting cards like the nymphs). and thats ignoring that the game should really be mainly balanced of the upgraded or strictly better cards. then you should have the creatures in clusters based off their in game role, element, and element role.

Hey im not trying to take away from the work youve done. I think its probably pretty sound in alot of situations. But it shouldnt just be a snap answer to say oh this doesnt match my CC model. it has to be changed.

Back to this thread topic

Im still not convinced that that 2/1 for 2 breaks anything in the game. the more I talk about it the more i think it would be fine in game. Youve thrown some numbers back but no real argument. You cant say a 2/1 for 2 breaks game balance because of parsite and a couple shields (well i wont buy it).

or maybe show me the decks that you think would abuse this 2/1 maybe that will convince me.

Like what would you propose the the 2/1 cost? 3? cause I dont see where thats going to fit in the game except for maybe fractal/nova combo
Maybe if you had read his thread you would realize that the 19 includes upped and unupped creatures which including all of those does add up to a lot also you cant ignore certain creatures just because its convenient. Also keep in mind that he takes the creatures skill into account. So there is no real need to separate different game roles because if you do that is like saying that one role is allowed to be better than another role.

The reason this is not balanced is because it sits off the curve that other monsters sit on it doesn't matter if it wouldn't break the game. Breaking the game or being abusable is not always what makes something unbalanced.

Also something you HAVE to keep in mind is that because it taps into all quanta pools it can be played off of a quantum tower so that makes this use ful in a mono other even if that mono other does not use nova.
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