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Offline AjitTopic starter

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Fallen Angel | Fallen Angel https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42816.msg533951#msg533951
« on: August 17, 2012, 12:55:22 am »
NAME:
Fallen Angel
ELEMENT:
Darkness
COST:
1
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
4|0
TEXT:

NAME:
Fallen Angel
ELEMENT:
Darkness
COST:
1
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
6|0
TEXT:


ART:
Ajit, original photo by Marcus Ranum, photo located here, allowed to use according to rules
IDEA:
Ajit
NOTES:
Likely combo with Eclipse
SERIES:


Offline furballdn

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Re: Fallen Angel | Fallen Angel https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42816.msg533953#msg533953
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2012, 12:58:23 am »

Offline AnonymousRevival

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Re: Fallen Angel | Fallen Angel https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42816.msg533954#msg533954
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2012, 12:59:31 am »
Nice card art.

Can be a game changer with fractal, since :darkness works relatively well with :aether.
Ignotum venit retro vivere. :aether :light

Offline AjitTopic starter

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Re: Fallen Angel | Fallen Angel https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42816.msg533983#msg533983
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2012, 03:14:24 am »
Nice card art.

Can be a game changer with fractal, since :darkness works relatively well with :aether.

Thanks, and true, game changer or breaker?  It'd require a multi-card combo.

Offline furballdn

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Re: Fallen Angel | Fallen Angel https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42816.msg533984#msg533984
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2012, 03:15:13 am »
Nice card art.

Can be a game changer with fractal, since :darkness works relatively well with :aether.

Thanks, and true, game changer or breaker?  It'd require a multi-card combo.
Multi-card combo=not OP no matter what?

Offline choongmyoung

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Re: Fallen Angel | Fallen Angel https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42816.msg533999#msg533999
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2012, 04:07:39 am »
Under Eclipse, you cost 1 :darkness to play 8 attack creature?
Circular Logic is true. Thus, Circular Logic is true.

Offline ZephyrPhantom

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Re: Fallen Angel | Fallen Angel https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42816.msg534004#msg534004
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2012, 04:27:13 am »
Nice card art.

Can be a game changer with fractal, since :darkness works relatively well with :aether.

Thanks, and true, game changer or breaker?  It'd require a multi-card combo.
Multi-card combo=not OP no matter what?
Said combos need at least 3 cards to become a major nerf factor (3-card combos generally require 15-18 cards, which generally means half a 30-card deck and thus the central strategy. 2-card combos only require 8-12 cards in a deck and are generally less of a nerfing factor since their are less cards requires to draw.) On the other hand, making the card be part of a combo does not necessarily shift balance. (Regardless of what 'combo' it becomes a part of, SoFo is still imbalanced by itself. Likewise, Antlion may be part of some crazy awesome future combo that involves a card that gives +10 | +10 to it, but Antlion by itself is still UP.)

I see three central strategies with this card:
1) Fallen Angel + Spell Buffs
2) Fallen Angel + Fractal
3) Fallen Angel + Nightfall

All are 2-card strategies.

The first two can easily be run off a mark and if done right will generally outshine their Spark/BL counterparts. (Fractal Angels might need a few pendulums, but the end damage is still likely greater.)

The third strategy is very cost effective (4 :darkness for the initial 5 | 1 attacker and 1 :darkness for each successive one | 5 :darkness for the initial 8 | 1 attacker and 1 :darkness for each successive one. Compare GoTP and Puffer Fish/Toadfish, which are  less effective in terms of quanta/attack ratio, even with just the first creature.) and is mono :darkness .

Issues I think need to be addressed:
1) How does this card avoid overstepping Spark's meta role? (Most buff decks will easily make the mark switch, Fractal decks will do so more gradually but are guaranteed to due to pendulums.)
2) The Eclipse/Angel combo appears to be too cost efficient to be balanced.
( 1 :darkness for 5 | 1 vs. 2 :life for 3 | 3
7 Cards + 9 :darkness for 6 5 | 1's vs. 6 cards + 12 :life for 6 3 | 3's.
Both will generally die at the same rate to CC unless the CC in question is a Fire/Thorn Shield.)
Is this combo balanced?
(I doubt it.)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 04:31:01 am by Zblader »

Offline AjitTopic starter

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Re: Fallen Angel | Fallen Angel https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42816.msg534007#msg534007
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2012, 04:34:19 am »
Thank you Zblader for the in-depth analysis.

Regarding CC at the end, we must also consider that PC will also destroy Fallen Angel if going with an Eclipse strat.  Unless a FA is buffed, Permanent Control (destroying Eclipse), will destroy all FA's on the field, making Fallen Angel quite vulnerable.

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Re: Fallen Angel | Fallen Angel https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42816.msg534014#msg534014
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2012, 04:58:56 am »
Thank you Zblader for the in-depth analysis. You're welcome. :)

Regarding CC at the end, we must also consider that PC will also destroy Fallen Angel if going with an Eclipse strat.  Unless a FA is buffed, Permanent Control (destroying Eclipse), will destroy all FA's on the field, making Fallen Angel quite vulnerable.
However only 4 PC cards can actually negate Eclipse:

Explosion (Cheapest and most viable)
Pulverizer (Harder to get out, but generally consired usable in stalls)
Butterfly Effect (Horrible Cost/Benefit ratio that results in very little use.)
SoFo (Imbalanced and should not be considered a model for balance against -any- card, unless said card specifically interacts with shards)

Out of these 4 : 2 are viable (1 is very slow to get out, however), 1 is not viable, and 1 is probably going to get knocked off its high horse in the 1.4 meta when Zanz comes back. Steal does not kill this card as Eclipse technically remains present the whole time. (Code-wise : 1 copy is destroyed while another is simultaneously created. Realistically : You can't steal the moon.)

The prescence of a counter does not necessarily affect balance. I suspect that even with more viable PC ingame this combo would still be very effective as players would simply play multiple Eclipses as opposed to a single one (and they'll probably have multiple copies anyway to draw it out quickly). Shields are also a potential counter, but Fire Shield shares the same element with Explosion and Thorn Carapace is somewhat expensive, leaving Skull Shield the only fully viable shield counter (to be fair, Skull Shield hardcounters anything with low HP, such as early Scarabs or Minor Phoenixes.)

There's also still the issue with redundancy with Spark, since Angel will still accomplish greater damage even without Eclipse.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 05:08:26 am by Zblader »

Offline Trollinator

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Re: Fallen Angel | Fallen Angel https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42816.msg534016#msg534016
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2012, 05:04:05 am »
Thank you Zblader for the in-depth analysis.

Regarding CC at the end, we must also consider that PC will also destroy Fallen Angel if going with an Eclipse strat.  Unless a FA is buffed, Permanent Control (destroying Eclipse), will destroy all FA's on the field, making Fallen Angel quite vulnerable.

So, basically, FA and Nightfall/Eclipse is a very powerful, yet very risky combo...especially since SoF are rampant everywhere.  OP?  Possibly, but PC wrecks the combo, also, with 1 hitpoint, any mass CC clears the field, and Skull Buckler, Fire Shield, and Thorn Carapace will shred FA like a Salad Shooter.  Skull Buckler is a personal favorite of mine, I usually play it PA'd, and I sit back and laugh as Phoenix and Ruby are reduced to 1/1 and 2/2 skellies.
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Re: Fallen Angel | Fallen Angel https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42816.msg534079#msg534079
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2012, 10:52:45 am »
Well. This definity makes good combos.
Dark-life can have something like upped FA eclipsed and mito/adread(magic number 8 )

or the obvious fractal eclipse.
A "rush" card for darkness is new.



Offline OdinVanguard

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Re: Fallen Angel | Fallen Angel https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42816.msg534340#msg534340
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2012, 11:20:02 pm »
I'm wary of the nightfall / eclipse combo ... 1 :darkness for 5|1 or 8|1 (both upped) . Granted its a 2 card combo, but considering only 1 nightfall can power all the angels, thats not really a big price compared to the payout.
With the nightfall combo, this card is too OP in my opinion.

I do love the artwork though. Its totally awesome.
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