Endless Army | Endless Army

[TheManuz]

Wasn't this tried and rejected at least twice? This promotes rushes that use BL, because you can endlessly churn out those things.

No, this tried for the first time, but maybe you're referring to another card. In that case it would be nice of you if you could give me the name or some other detail to let me search for those cards.
I didn't understand the comment about time rushes. I searched on http://elementscommunity.org/wiki/resources/elements-glossary/ (http://elementscommunity.org/wiki/resources/elements-glossary/) and didn't find trace of BL. What are you referring to?

This card needs a berf. It cannot be balanced in its current form.

Just to be clear, you mean that this card is UP before reaching the end of the deck, and OP when the player starts to draw creatures that should have died?

[OldTrees]

Wasn't this tried and rejected at least twice? This promotes rushes that use BL, because you can endlessly churn out those things.

No, this tried for the first time, but maybe you're referring to another card. In that case it would be nice of you if you could give me the name or some other detail to let me search for those cards.
I didn't understand the comment about time rushes. I searched on http://elementscommunity.org/wiki/resources/elements-glossary/ (http://elementscommunity.org/wiki/resources/elements-glossary/) and didn't find trace of BL. What are you referring to?

This card needs a berf. It cannot be balanced in its current form.

Just to be clear, you mean that this card is UP before reaching the end of the deck, and OP when the player starts to draw creatures that should have died?

Yes it is UP before the deck runs out and too cheap after it runs out compared to Eternity.

Also this is the 3rd iteration of this idea. You can search these using the google option of the forum search.
Aspect of Infinity and earlier Time Portal

BL means Spark | Ball Lightning.
The Combo is: play Endless Army, play Sparks, end turn sparks die, use Hourglasses to draw Sparks, repeat.

[Scaredgirl]

First of all, awesome art. Zanz should definitely steal that art and use it somewhere.

Interesting concept, but like others already said, the fact that creatures go at the bottom of your deck, is kind of a problem. You are probably dead before you even get to those cards. Card going on top of the deck or in your hand seem like more useful choices.

I'm also not a big fan of cards that do not stack. I dislike the fact that I am forced to take dead cards in my deck just to increase the chances that I will draw that one card I need early on. One option to fix that "problem" is to use counters that decrease when effect happens, and the permanent gets destroyed when they counter goes to zero. Or maybe you gain one card for each Endless Army you have up.

Not a bad idea but needs some fixing I think.

[TheManuz]

First of all, awesome art. Zanz should definitely steal that art and use it somewhere.

Thanks, if Zanz would do this, i'd be honored!

Interesting concept, but like others already said, the fact that creatures go at the bottom of your deck, is kind of a problem. You are probably dead before you even get to those cards. Card going on top of the deck or in your hand seem like more useful choices.

I'm also not a big fan of cards that do not stack. I dislike the fact that I am forced to take dead cards in my deck just to increase the chances that I will draw that one card I need early on. One option to fix that "problem" is to use counters that decrease when effect happens, and the permanent gets destroyed when they counter goes to zero. Or maybe you gain one card for each Endless Army you have up.

Not a bad idea but needs some fixing I think.

Sure, this card needs some fixing. I thinking of it, sometimes, and i'm trying to search a solution.
If i come to a solution that satisfy me, i will post it here, so i can get community feedbacks.
Meanwhile, if someone have a nice idea and wants to contribute, we can try to develop it.

How about it goes to the top of your deck instead? That would make it more useful while still preventing deckout.

Not a bad suggestion, but i hate the idea of this card slowing your draws.

Currently i was examining this idea:

I think this solves the uselessness of the card in the early game, and i think that increasing or decreasing ability and card cost could lead to balance.
I'd like to have some feedbacks, though.

[OldTrees]

This thread remains relevant: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17727.0.html

[TheManuz]

This thread remains relevant: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17727.0.html

I read the whole thread, looking for hints or problem this card could have.
It seems that it simple didn't do it. However, i feel that elements was redundant with Eternity, and upkeep was a little too much.

I'd give this card some more time, to hear feedbacks and to see if i come up with other ideas.
Then i will decide what to do about it.

Back to balance, these are the costs for antideckout loops:

	Eternity	Upped Eternity	Endless Army	Upped Endless Army
card cost	6	5	2	3
loop cycle cost	3 + creature casting cost	3 + creature casting cost	creature kill cost	creature kill cost

"creature casting cost" can be 0 with specific creature choice: Photon and RoLs, Damselfly, Gnome Gemfinder, Spark and Ball Lightning.
"creature kill cost" can be 0 too, with specific creature choice: Spark, Virus and Retrovirus
However, while for Eternity loop any targetable creature can be used (even a dragon), for Endless Army the death of the creature is a needed condition, so you can efffectively use only Sparks and Viruses. Otherwise you'll have to introduce a new card to kill the former, making it effectively a 3-cards combo: Endless Army+creature killer+creature to kill.

Because of this i think that the lower cost is balanced.

The unearth ability should be analyzed separately (not now, i have to go! )

[OldTrees]

This thread remains relevant: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17727.0.html

I read the whole thread, looking for hints or problem this card could have.
It seems that it simple didn't do it. However, i feel that elements was redundant with Eternity, and upkeep was a little too much.

I'd give this card some more time, to hear feedbacks and to see if i come up with other ideas.
Then i will decide what to do about it.

Back to balance, these are the costs for antideckout loops:

	Eternity	Upped Eternity	Endless Army	Upped Endless Army
card cost	6	5	2	3
loop cycle cost	3 + creature casting cost	3 + creature casting cost	creature kill cost	creature kill cost

"creature casting cost" can be 0 with specific creature choice: Photon and RoLs, Damselfly, Gnome Gemfinder, Spark and Ball Lightning.
"creature kill cost" can be 0 too, with specific creature choice: Spark, Virus and Retrovirus
However, while for Eternity loop any targetable creature can be used (even a dragon), for Endless Army the death of the creature is a needed condition, so you can efffectively use only Sparks and Viruses. Otherwise you'll have to introduce a new card to kill the former, making it effectively a 3-cards combo: Endless Army+creature killer+creature to kill.

Because of this i think that the lower cost is balanced.

The unearth ability should be analyzed separately (not now, i have to go! )

It is not a 3 card combo. People have no reason not to use a Spark since they are the ideal target for this card. Therefore people will use a Spark. 2 cards 1 element combo. Eternity also used Spark.

[TheManuz]

This thread remains relevant: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17727.0.html

I read the whole thread, looking for hints or problem this card could have.
It seems that it simple didn't do it. However, i feel that elements was redundant with Eternity, and upkeep was a little too much.

I'd give this card some more time, to hear feedbacks and to see if i come up with other ideas.
Then i will decide what to do about it.

Back to balance, these are the costs for antideckout loops:

	Eternity	Upped Eternity	Endless Army	Upped Endless Army
card cost	6	5	2	3
loop cycle cost	3 + creature casting cost	3 + creature casting cost	creature kill cost	creature kill cost

"creature casting cost" can be 0 with specific creature choice: Photon and RoLs, Damselfly, Gnome Gemfinder, Spark and Ball Lightning.
"creature kill cost" can be 0 too, with specific creature choice: Spark, Virus and Retrovirus
However, while for Eternity loop any targetable creature can be used (even a dragon), for Endless Army the death of the creature is a needed condition, so you can efffectively use only Sparks and Viruses. Otherwise you'll have to introduce a new card to kill the former, making it effectively a 3-cards combo: Endless Army+creature killer+creature to kill.

Because of this i think that the lower cost is balanced.

The unearth ability should be analyzed separately (not now, i have to go! )

It is not a 3 card combo. People have no reason not to use a Spark since they are the ideal target for this card. Therefore people will use a Spark. 2 cards 1 element combo.

I was saying that not using Sparks would need a 3 cards combo (i said "otherwise"), so Endless Army forces to use Sparks or Viruses while Eternity can use any creature.
It should be also considered that Eternity Ability has 2 other uses, that are rewinding opponent creature, and dealing damage.
How much does it costs dealing 4 damages with a weapon? Not much i guess.
I think that the majority of Eternity value is in Reverse Time on a stick.

[OldTrees]

For antideckout Eternity is likewise restricted to low cost (aka 0 cost) for optimum antideck usage.

4 damage on an elemental weapon would cost 0 +1card+weapon slot or 1 +0cards+weapon slot.

So with optimum usage (1 spark in the deck)
Eternity (-4Atk, -weapon type)
Effect: Antideckout or Reverse Time CC
Cost: 5 |4 + 3 per use

Endless Army
Effect: Antideckout and Unearth
Cost: 2 |3

[TheManuz]

For antideckout Eternity is likewise restricted to low cost (aka 0 cost) for optimum antideck usage.

4 damage on an elemental weapon would cost 0 +1card+weapon slot or 1 +0cards+weapon slot.

So with optimum usage (1 spark in the deck)
Eternity (-4Atk, -weapon type)
Effect: Antideckout or Reverse Time CC
Cost: 5 |4 + 3 per use

Endless Army
Effect: Antideckout and Unearth
Cost: 2 |3

I think i will go for

Endless Army                    4   Unearth

Endless Army (upped)      3   Unearth

Anyway, i'll have to think a little more on this card.