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Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg358137#msg358137
« on: June 29, 2011, 02:36:21 am »
NAME:
Druid's Pillar
ELEMENT:
Other
COST:
0
TYPE:
Permanent
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
Each turn two random quanta out of  :life :death :earth :air :water :fire are generated.
NAME:
Druid's Tower
ELEMENT:
Other
COST:
0
TYPE:
Permanent
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
Each turn, generates two random quanta out of  :life :death :earth :air :water :fire. Gain 2 extra quanta when you play this card.
ART:
EtG avatar gallery
IDEA:
Chromatophore
NOTES:
Intended to bridge the gap between pendulums (1 quantum from 2 elements yields 1/2 per turn each element) and quantum pillars (3 quanta amongst 12 elements averages 1/4 per turn each element)
SERIES:
Cosmic Pillar produces 2 quanta out of  :light :darkness :gravity :aether :time :entropy
Holy Pillar produces 2 quanta out of  :water :air :time :gravity :light :life
Unholy Pillar produces 2 quanta out of :fire :earth :aether :entropy :darkness :death
(no pages for these currently)

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg358142#msg358142
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2011, 03:01:58 am »
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
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Offline ddevans96

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Re: Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg358145#msg358145
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2011, 03:05:43 am »
Why is aether considered unholy?
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Re: Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg358150#msg358150
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2011, 03:16:24 am »
The holy/unholy sets were made to correpsond with the metamorphisis event's good/evil alignments.  This was one of the first events i read about when i started on the forums so i may have thought these were more ingrained as good/evil in the elements' lore than perhaps they are.

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24135.0.html (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,24135.0.html)

The other sets of six i chose thematically.   :life :death :earth :fire :water :air  strike me as more ancient or primordial elements whereas  :entropy :gravity  :aether :time :darkness :light  remind me of a more modern or futuristic interpretation (can't really find the right words for this though)

Other arrangements could work just as well or better.  Mainly i would like to see the mechanic (or a similar one) as one way to open up more avenues of deck creation.

Offline SnoWeb

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Re: Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg358208#msg358208
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2011, 07:55:43 am »
I like the idea of having the possibility to build half rainbows. The "ratio randomness/quanta production" (also called Rrqp) seem fair. The mixtures of elements you chose are somehow equilibrated.

However your background story is a bit weak:
    The conception of Aether as an element is as old as the core four elements. The seizure :life :death :earth :fire :water :air versus :entropy :gravity :aether :time :darkness :light indeed makes a lot of sense. It correspond IMO to the separation of the natural/physical world on one side and the conceptual/metaphysical world on the other. On the other hand, your holy/unholy idea is a bit meh IMO. It is clear that you have to separate the opposing elements for the second seizure. I personally like the winter ( :darkness :time :water :death :entropy :air) / summer (  :fire  :gravity :light :earth :aether :life) separation.
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Re: Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg358298#msg358298
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2011, 03:04:23 pm »
The conception of Aether as an element is as old as the core four elements. The seizure :life :death :earth :fire :water :air versus :entropy :gravity :aether :time :darkness :light indeed makes a lot of sense. It correspond IMO to the separation of the natural/physical world on one side and the conceptual/metaphysical world on the other.
Just read up a bit on this at wikipedia ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element (http://[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element)).  If i'm reading it correctly the earliest recordings of the idea of elements are babylonian and  include  :air :water :aether :earth but not  :fire.  Most mythos included the five elements, while the egyptian and buddhist only recognized the four  :fire :water :air :earth without  :aether (with the Buddha additionally including 4 secondary elements of color, smell, taste and nutrient).  The chakras described  :fire :water :air :earth and then divided the metaphysical aspect into multiple parts:  :aether/sound, thought/space and :light/ :darkness (i guess this last one could be physical or metaphysical its a bit on the border imo).   The alchemists' sulphur, mercury and salt described physical processes and along with :fire :water :air :earth completed their version. Also the Chinese model is quite a bit different.

I very much like your description as "natural/physical world on one side and the conceptual/metaphysical world on the other".  I think this is what i was trying to say but couldn't find the words.  My thinking was that in the past, the focus was more on the material world and the immaterial principles tended to get lumped into a single element called aether whereas more modern interpretations might shift the focus more towards the insubstantive allowing for a finer  :entropy :gravity :aether :time :light :darkness.  You said it much more aptly then my crude ancient/futuristic stab.  Thank you.

On the other hand, your holy/unholy idea is a bit meh IMO. It is clear that you have to separate the opposing elements for the second seizure. I personally like the winter ( :darkness :time :water :death :entropy :air) / summer (  :fire  :gravity :light :earth :aether :life) separation.
Agreed.  Another division i have considered is the more orderly elements  :light :death :gravity :water :earth :time versus the more chaotic  :aether :darkness :fire :air :life :entropy.  I guess the good/evil order/chaos themes are rather played out but its what occured to me.  I think its clear why each is on which side apart from possibly time/aether.  Time always flows in a straight line and time decks have a lot of control over draws making their decks behave more consistently.  Aether on the other hand tries to break all the rules by shifting out of our dimension.

Thanks again SnoWeb for your discussion.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg358446#msg358446
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2011, 09:43:59 pm »
665280 possible variants of this card by changing elements alone.
Only 66 possible dual pillars possible.
Zanz made 12 pendulums instead.
You will need to reduce the possible variants with a mechanically justified system. (thematically justified is not sufficient)
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Re: Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg358589#msg358589
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2011, 04:15:03 am »
665280 possible variants of this card by changing elements alone.
Those are permutations (you are counting  :aether :air :darkness :death :earth :entropy and the reordering :air :aether :darkness :death :earth :entropy as separate variants)... 12 choose 6 (combinations) is "only" 924.
(thematically justified is not sufficient)
Could you elaborate on this please? Is the need for a mechanical rather than a thematic justification particular to pillars?

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Re: Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg358677#msg358677
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2011, 11:00:24 am »
Thanks for the correction +45rep

The reason a mechanical justification for the reduction from 924 is needed is
1) A reduction is needed
2) Each combination has a thematic justification (therefore generic theme with not cause a reduction)
3) The core of the card suggestion is mechanical and thus requires a mechanical justification
4) The mechanic of a card always needs a mechanical justification just as the name always needs a thematic justification
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Re: Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg358723#msg358723
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2011, 02:22:54 pm »
The reason a mechanical justification for the reduction from 924 is needed is
1) A reduction is needed
2) Each combination has a thematic justification (therefore generic theme with not cause a reduction)
3) The core of the card suggestion is mechanical and thus requires a mechanical justification
4) The mechanic of a card always needs a mechanical justification just as the name always needs a thematic justification
Sorry, i certainly do not mean to belabor this point.  But i am still a bit confused particularly about (3).  Perhaps it would help if you could explain the difference between this situation and the following hypothetical:

Before the existence of forest spirit, someone suggests it as a new card.  There are 132 permutation of elements that could create the card.
1) applies since 132 similar spirit cards is too many
2) any combination could be justified thematically
3) i'm not sure i understand this rule.  If someone suggests the forest spirit thematically because he wants to see a plant ( :life) creature that grows ( :water) then a thematic justification is sufficient but if the suggestion springs mechanically from wanting to see a growth creature and then the thematic application of the elements comes afterward then a mechanical justification of why  :life and  :water require a growth creature is necessary?  Am i understanding that correctly?
4) as you said, this always applies

I apologize if i am being a bit slow to understand, and i thank you for your continued assistance.

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Re: Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg358765#msg358765
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2011, 04:34:03 pm »
I apologize if i am being a bit slow to understand, and i thank you for your continued assistance.
Don't worry - you are not the only one. I am lost in translation here. It is either because I'm not a native english speaker or I am a bit slow (like you are apparently - as you said - see above) or maybe OldTrees wasn't that clear ... I'll go for the first one.

For me the mechanical justification is to find an intermediate way to play. For now, you can play mono, duo and trio (yes you can) in a not to complicated way (to balance) using pendulums and towers. You can also easily play 8-12 elements using quantum towers and supernovas (without wasting to much speed). However in the gap, play 4-7 elements is rather complicated to balance. A quantum producer which is intermediate between an elemental pillar (no randomness - produce 1 quantum) and a quantum tower (randomness/12 - produce 3 quanta) is logically producing 2 quanta out of 6 (as the present cards).
It is obvious that we can not create the 924 possible arrangements. Four however looks reasonable. How do you create four types of quantum producer which produce 2 quanta out of 6 in maximizing the versatility? you create two couples of opposite arrangement which have 3 commune elements with each non-partner. That's basically what chromatophore did (you have a fitting name to create these cards).
You'll tell me: but why did you chose these arrangements over those? Because we can cook a nice story explaining this or that selection. That is the same reason why light, fire, air, and earth have creature producing quanta and not the others or why fire and entropy have these very convenient quanta producing spell: the theme ...

All in all, I think this idea is the one that favorize the most the number of possibilities with the lowest number of card created and have the simplest mechanic, in order to give an easy access to the 4-7 zone.

Good work chromatophore!

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Re: Druid's Pillar | Druid's Tower https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28062.msg358920#msg358920
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2011, 10:11:03 pm »
The reason a mechanical justification for the reduction from 924 is needed is
1) A reduction is needed
2) Each combination has a thematic justification (therefore generic theme with not cause a reduction)
3) The core of the card suggestion is mechanical and thus requires a mechanical justification
4) The mechanic of a card always needs a mechanical justification just as the name always needs a thematic justification
Sorry, i certainly do not mean to belabor this point.  But i am still a bit confused particularly about (3).  Perhaps it would help if you could explain the difference between this situation and the following hypothetical:

Before the existence of forest spirit, someone suggests it as a new card.  There are 132 permutation of elements that could create the card.
1) applies since 132 similar spirit cards is too many
2) any combination could be justified thematically
3) i'm not sure i understand this rule.  If someone suggests the forest spirit thematically because he wants to see a plant ( :life) creature that grows ( :water) then a thematic justification is sufficient but if the suggestion springs mechanically from wanting to see a growth creature and then the thematic application of the elements comes afterward then a mechanical justification of why  :life and  :water require a growth creature is necessary?  Am i understanding that correctly?
4) as you said, this always applies

I apologize if i am being a bit slow to understand, and i thank you for your continued assistance.
The core of a card idea is what is the piece that if removed changes the topic of the card.
The core of the card is the last piece remaining if you were asked to remove/undefine all the optional parts.
From what your card looks like it appears your card's core is somewhere between: 'supply some of some elements' and 'Generate 2 of 6 elements'.

(4) is saying the mechanical piece of a card needs to be justified to the standard that a piece is held accountable to.
(3) is saying the piece that is also the Core needs to be justified to the standard that a Core is held accountable to.
Forest Spirit could have been created one of two ways:
A) Fire Spirit (Core: Race of Spirits)
B) Lava Golem (Core: Growth mechanic)

A1)An initial reduction from 7(not  :earth :entropy :gravity :time :water)-12(1 per element) was needed to not dominate the opening set of creatures. This would be cause for a temporary not a finalized reduction.
A2)Depending on the meaning of spirit used only a subset of elements would fit.
A3)The core of A was thematic
A4)Growth would still need a mechanical justification
B1)No reduction was needed because skills are added to hypothetical creatures thus there was no quota for Growth
B2)Not every mono or duo combination of costs fits the mechanic ( :death:Growth [gain +2|+2]? I think not.)
B3)Growth did need a justification for allowing +2|+2 per turn. A justification for Growth would be allowing creature stats to change over time in a positive way to counteract the negative of CC.
B4)see B3

PS: You are not slow to understand.

For me the mechanical justification is to find an intermediate way to play. For now, you can play mono, duo and trio (yes you can) in a not to complicated way (to balance) using pendulums and towers. You can also easily play 8-12 elements using quantum towers and supernovas (without wasting to much speed). However in the gap, play 4-7 elements is rather complicated to balance. A quantum producer which is intermediate between an elemental pillar (no randomness - produce 1 quantum) and a quantum tower (randomness/12 - produce 3 quanta) is logically producing 2 quanta out of 6 (as the present cards).

...

How do you create four types of quantum producer which produce 2 quanta out of 6 in maximizing the versatility? you create two couples of opposite arrangement which have 3 commune elements with each non-partner.
Thanks SnoWeb. You have started the case/discussion. How many possible sets of 4 are we left with and how do we chose which of those maximizes versatility of the set?
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
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