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Offline FlareGlutox

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Re: Community Card Design [Stats (ATK | HP) and Ability Cost] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29355.msg436307#msg436307
« Reply #204 on: December 08, 2011, 03:10:00 pm »
some reminders for this phase:
-we should consider butterfly effect when determining its att-value
-if we make it a duo via ability cost, we can lower its initial cost to enable a better synergy with mitosis
  -low cost has the potential to make it more OP, though, since this synergizes well with bounce, if cast on itself
-you can give "bounce" to opponent's creatures to clog up their hand (together with Owl's Eye for example)

and some questions:
-shall we make "bounce" trigger death effects (it would work similiar to reverse time otherwise)?
-since it is in air, shall the creature be airborne?
-will mutation be able to create mutants of this creature (with the swift-passive and random active abilities)?
-will bounce trigger before or after phoenix/aflatoxin/skull shield? or will it generate an ash/malignant cell/skeleton accordingly AND put a copy of the creature to its owners hand?
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Community Card Design [Poll - Element Retake] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29355.msg436376#msg436376
« Reply #205 on: December 08, 2011, 06:41:17 pm »
Duo vs Mono
Quote from: FlareGlutox
if we make it a duo via ability cost, we can lower its initial cost to enable a better synergy with mitosis
A mono card will create more decks despite the +1 casting cost relative to a duo card.
Activation Cost
Bounce feels like an Air ability to me. That would make the activation cost X :air.
Since bounce returns the card but not the quanta used to cast the creature, I think the activation cost should be low. 1 :air|1 :air
Bounced creatures will be replayed many times. Only the first casting cost a draw. But the rest have the additional cost of the activation cost. Again a 1 :air|1 :air activation costs fits.
Casting Cost
This card probably should hit the field quickly but not in the beginning of the game. A cost of 4 :air-6 :air would fit.
This card protects itself by bouncing. It should have a cost that is repeatable but not spammable. A cost of 5 :air|4 :air would fit.
HP
Quote from:  Zaealix
Alright...So considering OldTrees' idea of this creature using it's ability to protect itself, as well as the swift mechanic, the HP of this creature should be low.
The second tier of hp is 1-5hp. (The first tier is 0hp and would restrict the ability usage)
1: one hit
2: infection takes 2 turns
3: 2 infections for 2 turns, 1 infection 3 turns, tier 2 lesser bolts (require stock quanta)
4: snipe takes 2, infection takes +1 turn, tier 2 fire bolt
5: shockwave takes 2, tier 3 lesser bolts
2|3 hp
Attack
The bouncing ability by itself makes this a moderate to high priority depending on the deck and the bounce tricks used.
A low attack would get a lower cost.
A very low attack would enable butterfly effect. [FlareGlutox]
BE bounce has a 1 turn advantage over BE cat and is more resilient but requires a duo.
(Cat's fragile nature encourages the use of CC indirectly reducing the resilience of BE on BE cat relative to BE bounce)
2 attack would ensure that BE cat remains a cheaper alternative to BE bounce.

That would be
Casting Cost: 5 :air|4 :air
Swift
 :air: Grant Bounce passive
Hp: 2|3
Attack: 2|2
However that would be UP by 1-2 q*.
*q is the unit for cost in casting cost quanta.

Minor mechanical compromises
Casting Cost: 4 :air|4 :air
Swift
 :air: Grant Bounce passive
Hp: 2|3
Attack: 2|4
This appears balanced to me considering the potential abnormally synergistic usages of BE, Mitosis, Spark, Fire Shield. (I may be underestimating the utility/strength one of those)

However
The community had decided through a poll for this card to be an Air creature. I believe that details have surfaced that might justify reconsideration and perhaps a new poll.

I should note if the creature were a Time creature it would be possible to have a balanced upgraded BE synergy and would enable an interaction between Readiness and Swift that would have benefited the card's versatility.

So far the only thematic aspects involved in the selection of the creature's element are:
Low attack, Low hp and Swift.
Other design motives involved are:
BE balancing and Duo vs Mono.

Just to be clear: As an activated ability, Bounce is represented in the Activation cost. Its theme is not relevant to the casting cost.

More notes:
Bounce should not trigger death effects. If a creature is alive and dead it is a cat. No other creature should be given that (especially not Spark).

I think devour would force the creature to retreat but not feed the Oytugh. (Unless a leg is sufficient for the +1|+1 :) )

Mutation should have this creature as an option. It would be comparable in value with other mutation results through skill rather than strength.

Alfatoxin seems to trump Skull Shield and both trump Phoenix. To keep the creature in one place Bounce should trump all three. (no Ash, Cell or Skeleton)

If it remains Air it probably should remain airborne. However the bouncing nature leaves room for it not being airborne if a good mechanical reason is given for a non airborne Air creature.

RT clogs the draw, Bounce clogs the hand. The effects are different.

What should happens with a full hand? Failure to retreat?
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Offline Zaealix

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Re: Community Card Design [Stats (ATK | HP) and Ability Cost] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29355.msg436386#msg436386
« Reply #206 on: December 08, 2011, 07:13:35 pm »
(Unless a leg is sufficent for the +1+1) That line made me lol. I think because of the humor in a humanoid hopping about on one leg. It however, raises the question of whether that would effect either creature's performance after repeated near-devours, so I think for simplicities' sake we will think of it as the creature narrowly avoids being eaten, as opposed to dismemberment and then escaping. :))
 Anyhow...Thematically speaking, the 'hand' in ETG is the 'mind' of the element...I don't see how a 'full' mind would prevent this retreating, but would cause the creature, to the deck next. I suppose if it did that, it should follow RT's example, and be the next card drawn by that player.
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Offline FlareGlutox

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Re: Community Card Design [Stats (ATK | HP) and Ability Cost] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29355.msg436398#msg436398
« Reply #207 on: December 08, 2011, 07:45:42 pm »
RT clogs the draw, Bounce clogs the hand. The effects are different.
Of course RT and Bounce are not the same; I probably should have written "loosely similar" to clarify, what I mean.

A mono card will create more decks despite the +1 casting cost relative to a duo card.
This is probably true and my point about that was mainly just a reminder, not my personal opinion, which also favors a mono. That's why I did put a limitation to this point regarding the OPness of low cost + Bounce. Not that I'm implying you have misunderstood me; again, I just want to clarify things.

Anyhow...Thematically speaking, the 'hand' in ETG is the 'mind' of the element...I don't see how a 'full' mind would prevent this retreating, but would cause the creature, to the deck next. I suppose if it did that, it should follow RT's example, and be the next card drawn by that player.
Mhm, this seems to fit pretty well thematically, but considering the use of Bounce to clog up the opponents hand, this would enable clogging up the opponents deck, too (espacially when considering nightmare). We could instead have it escape to the bottom of your deck, if this is possible coding-wise. Otherwise we still have the option of simply letting it die.
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Offline Zaealix

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Re: Community Card Design [Stats (ATK | HP) and Ability Cost] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29355.msg436409#msg436409
« Reply #208 on: December 08, 2011, 08:22:55 pm »
Escaping to the bottom of the deck, while this does, in my mind, explain how the creature comes back ready and able to fight, it also makes it harder to use bounce to keep your creatures 'in play'. Then again, considering the possible ease of use of bounce, and how difficult it may be to counter, I suppose that is the better thing to do. It also shifts offensive use of bounce towards denying your opponent creatures.....This is a very very very interesting and multifaced ability. Anti-CC, possibly anti-deckout...It would change the game of Elements considerably.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Community Card Design [Stats (ATK | HP) and Ability Cost] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29355.msg436419#msg436419
« Reply #209 on: December 08, 2011, 08:55:59 pm »
If you try to hold onto too many thoughts at once one of them will be lost. I suggest that a bounced creature will return to the hand if there is room. If there is not room then it will die/be discarded.

Even with this option Bounce is still anti-deckout with Sparks.

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Offline TheManuz

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Re: Community Card Design [Stats (ATK | HP) and Ability Cost] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29355.msg436716#msg436716
« Reply #210 on: December 09, 2011, 03:38:21 pm »
I agree that the bounce should not cause death effects and that should cancel the ability side-effects (like +1|+1 of devour).
I also agree that if you have a full hand, you lose the creature (the bounce fails). This also adds more uses for Nightmare, and i think it's a good thing.
I don't like the bounce becoming an RT when the player have a full hand because it's more complicated.

I'm not good with costs and stats, so i will not add anything on this point.
But i really want to say a thing: we need a more suggestive name for Bounce ability!
My suggestion is Elusion.

Offline Zaealix

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Re: Community Card Design [Stats (ATK | HP) and Ability Cost] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29355.msg436728#msg436728
« Reply #211 on: December 09, 2011, 04:27:52 pm »
Escape? Recall? Retreat? Reborn?
I dunno...
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Offline TheManuz

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Re: Community Card Design [Stats (ATK | HP) and Ability Cost] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29355.msg436735#msg436735
« Reply #212 on: December 09, 2011, 04:46:39 pm »
Escape? Recall? Retreat? Reborn?
I dunno...
Recall is too :aether and Reborn is too :life.
Escape and retreat are fitting. However i still prefer Elusion!  8)

Offline FlareGlutox

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Re: Community Card Design [Stats (ATK | HP) and Ability Cost] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29355.msg436753#msg436753
« Reply #213 on: December 09, 2011, 06:20:31 pm »
This may sound to much like a synonym for dying, but what about "fade" or "fade away"? (fits air imo)
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Offline TheManuz

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Re: Community Card Design [Stats (ATK | HP) and Ability Cost] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29355.msg436829#msg436829
« Reply #214 on: December 09, 2011, 10:29:42 pm »
This may sound to much like a synonym for dying, but what about "fade" or "fade away"? (fits air imo)
For me it's not a synonym of dying, it feels really appropriate, and it describe the process of a summoned creature that goes back in the mind of the elemental!
Awesome suggestion!
This is my new current favorite!
I'd prefer Fading or Fade Out.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Community Card Design [Stats (ATK | HP) and Ability Cost] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29355.msg436844#msg436844
« Reply #215 on: December 09, 2011, 11:46:45 pm »
Fading has negative connotations. It would give the impression that the creature "slowly disappears" not "returns to escape death".
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anything
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