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Offline TheManuzTopic starter

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Amethyst Maker | Amethyst Factory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20265.msg257362#msg257362
« on: January 26, 2011, 12:17:11 am »
NAME:
Amethyst Maker
ELEMENT:
:entropy
COST:
0
TYPE:
Permanent
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
Generate 1 quantum matching your mark. 2 random quanta: gain  :entropy
NAME:
Amethyst Factory
ELEMENT:
:entropy
COST:
0
TYPE:
Permanent
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
Generate 1 quantum matching your mark. 1 random quanta: gain  :entropy
ART:
TheManuz
IDEA:
TheManuz
NOTES:
The ability is used only one time per turn.
SERIES:
Factory Series
This card is meant to be part of a serie, a factory for each element, to give an alternative way more color.
All the cards should have the identical mechanic, producing quantum matching your mark and letting you conver random quanta for the specified quanta.

Names would be (all the names are from gems and minerals, some matches pillars names):
 :entropy:Amethyst Maker | Amethyst Factory
 :death:Ivory Maker | Ivory Factory (thanks to joebob777 for the suggestion)
 :gravity:Amber Maker | Amber Factory (thanks to joebob777 for the suggestion)
 :earth:Zircon Maker | Zircon Factory
 :life:Emerald Maker | Emerald Factory
 :fire:Ruby Maker | Ruby Factory
 :water:Aquamarine Maker | Aquamarine Factory
 :light:Diamond Maker | Diamond Factory
 :air:Sapphire Maker | Sapphire Factory
 :time:Chrysoberyl Maker | Chrysoberyl Factory
 :darkness:Obsidian Maker | Obsidian Factory

I was wondering if using the ability many times per turn (like Rustler) would OP this card. Considering the unupgraded one, the card gives for free only one type of quanta: your mark type. So it's less than a pillar.
The conversion cost is greater than the quantum you get. 2 quanta for 1 quanta, i think it's balanced.

But if the ability should be used many times per turn, then the upgraded one should be:
"Generate 1 quantum matching your mark. 2 random quanta: gain  :entropy. You can use this ability more times per turn. When it comes into play you gain  :entropy"
The problem is that this is too long!!!  :o

Anyway, i'm waiting for comments and feedback!

joebob777

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Re: Amethyst Maker | Amethyst Factory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20265.msg257397#msg257397
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2011, 12:57:10 am »
:death could be ivory since it is made from the tusks (a bone) of elephants, it might be a little cruel but it sadly works
:gravity should be amber like amber nymph

Offline TheManuzTopic starter

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Re: Amethyst Maker | Amethyst Factory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20265.msg257684#msg257684
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2011, 11:10:23 am »
Nice suggestions! I'll edit the main post according to it! Thanks! ;)

Offline EmeraldTiger

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Re: Amethyst Maker | Amethyst Factory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20265.msg257753#msg257753
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2011, 02:56:02 pm »
The people that know about cost and stuff may suggest this cost 2 :entropy |1 :entropy .
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Offline TheManuzTopic starter

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Re: Amethyst Maker | Amethyst Factory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20265.msg257807#msg257807
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2011, 04:59:50 pm »
I cannot see why.
If you consider this card like a pillar (cost 0, produces a specific quantum), this card has something less (cannot produce a specific quantum, only your mark type, so you cannot differentiate) and something more (you can "buy" a quanta of a specific type).
Anyway: i'm open to suggestion as long as they are motivated.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Amethyst Maker | Amethyst Factory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20265.msg257815#msg257815
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2011, 05:14:01 pm »
This is better than a pendulum but not much so. (if skill is once per turn)
This is better than a pendulum. (if skill is multiple times per turn)
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Offline TheManuzTopic starter

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Re: Amethyst Maker | Amethyst Factory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20265.msg257852#msg257852
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2011, 06:11:21 pm »
This is NOT better than a pendulum, and i'll explain why.
I'll examine the card as it's presented, not the "multiple times" alternative.

Let's suppose i want to make a triple color deck:  :entropy  :gravity and  :time (for example)
I can take three type of pillars, Time Pillars, Amethyst Pillars and Gravity Pillars, set my mark to what i think it's appropriate, and get three types of quanta (maybe four, if mark is not one of the three)

With makers/factories you take Chrysoberyl Maker/Factory, Amethyst Maker/Factory and Amber Maker/Factory. Each one gives only ONE type of quanta: my mark type. And my mark gives me... the same type.
Sure, i can convert them, but it costs 2 to get one.
And there is another downside: there is the possibility that, for getting a  :entropy quantum, i may spend a  :entropy and a  :time, that result in a loss of a  :time.
With the upgraded version i can spend  :entropy to get  :entropy, resulting in a wasted ability, not a wasted quantum.

Do you still think this it's overpowered? I really think it's balanced.

Offline The_Mormegil

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Re: Amethyst Maker | Amethyst Factory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20265.msg257861#msg257861
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2011, 06:32:46 pm »
This is VERY similar to my Temple series (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,16622.0.html) (in the Crucible at the moment). Although, there is a big difference: the card is faster (not having a cost) and consumes random quanta. Which is worse in my opinion, for the following reasons.

1) The new cards are supposed to be different but not strictly better than the old ones. This is almost stricktly better than a Pendulum, as I wouldn't see ANYONE play a Pendulum over this card for duo decks, and as you pointed out almost everyone will play this for trio or even quad decks. This is because I can use this card to get EXACTLY the quanta I want starting from a common "pool" of on-element quanta.

2) This is broken in combination with Immolation and Novas, that potentially allow you to convert (eventually) all the quanta generated to a same element.

3) This is even more broken with Quantum Towers, as you can go mono with triple the amount of quanta you would normally have thanks to this card.

Conclusion: if you don't reduce the ability at once per turn, you have a VERY broken card.

Now let's see what happens if you reduce it to once per turn.

1) You could go mono, and still use this to convert off-element quanta to your main quanta, gaining a lot of speed although not as much. This is bad because it enhances mono rushes and rushes needn't be enhanced...

2) You could go duo, and this turns out to be a VERY unreliable quanta source: it has a 50-50 chance of working, making it utterly worthless.

3) You could go trio, and this turns out to be... even worse. Let's say you have a mark of :time. You want to play :time with :darkness and :aether, so decide to use this card. You then will have a good deal of Time quanta (that this produces every turn) and almost NO :aether and :darkness quanta (at the START of the process). Imagine to play these alone with no off-element towers for now: you need 2 :aether to cast Silence: you'll need about 4-5 Factories out to do this, as each has about 50% chance of not working (apart from the first). Now, imagine you play with towers already, and thus have all 3 elements. Or even, imagine to activate your Dark Factories after you activated your :aether ones, so that you have some :aether leftovers. You will have a 33% chance of the ability not working, a 33% chance of the ability working correctly... and a 33% chance of stripping you of your already limited supply of :aether quanta. So, even worse than duo on most cases.

Conclusion: the more you increase the number of elements, the WORSE this card becomes, actually being the most useful for MONOS and increasing the speed of monos considerably.

I don't suppose this works as intended...
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Offline TheManuzTopic starter

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Re: Amethyst Maker | Amethyst Factory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20265.msg257891#msg257891
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2011, 07:39:39 pm »
You're right. This is not what i intended to do.
The main purpose of this card was to have a colorless pillar (gives mark type quata) that can give a specific type of quanta at a cost. But this card has too many side effects.
I think i'll modify it.
Thanks for your point!  ;)

YoYoBro

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Re: Amethyst Maker | Amethyst Factory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20265.msg257905#msg257905
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2011, 08:07:15 pm »
I agree with the analysis, you should tweak it, this is a slightly worse version of pendulum..

Offline The_Mormegil

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Re: Amethyst Maker | Amethyst Factory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=20265.msg257912#msg257912
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2011, 08:13:51 pm »
Well, if that is what you were looking for, take a look at the Temple series i linked above. It's very similar to this idea, and I could use your support in the voting phase... ;)
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