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Offline MarvaddinTopic starter

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Cannibal Troll | Cannibal Troll https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28893.msg369156#msg369156
« on: July 21, 2011, 06:41:47 am »
NAME:
Cannibal Troll
ELEMENT:
Life
COST:
5 :life
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
4/4
TEXT:
:darkness : Cannibalize - Destroy a creature of same element and gain +3/+1. Regenerates 2 HP per turn.
NAME:
Cannibal Troll
ELEMENT:
Life
COST:
5 :life
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
6/4
TEXT:
:darkness : Cannibalize - Destroy a creature of same element and gain +3/+1. Regenerates 2 HP per turn.
ART:
Its a placeholder from internet. Looking for art.
IDEA:
Marvaddin
NOTES:
Creature can be yours or from opponent. Powerfull vs mirror match.
However, requires Darkness.
Its supposed to be a skill that can be used in other cards... like Gravity Devour.
If destroyed creature is poisonous, could receive a poison counter.
SERIES:
N/A
Feedback welcome.

Offline Bhlewos

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Re: Cannibal Troll | Cannibal Troll https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28893.msg369169#msg369169
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2011, 08:14:14 am »
Hmm...I like the concept and mechanic. The only thing that worries me is the fact that you can destroy enemy creatures as well. I'd love this card against Life rushes in the Arena, but when you'd theoretically only need one  :darkness to take down a Jade Dragon, that feels like it's veering into OP territory. I think it would be good enough just being able to destroy your own creatures. Just my opinion though.

Offline Pineapple

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Re: Cannibal Troll | Cannibal Troll https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28893.msg369171#msg369171
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2011, 08:17:52 am »
I think that, to fix balancing issues, it should gain +3/-3 and regen only 1 per turn.

Offline MarvaddinTopic starter

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Re: Cannibal Troll | Cannibal Troll https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28893.msg369239#msg369239
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2011, 02:31:21 pm »
I would like to point that paradox skill of Maxwell Demon can also destroy a Jade Dragon (in fact, most dragons) using just a few quanta. That card is mono and work against every element. This one is duo and works vs 1 element only (the main use would be on your own creatures, if enemy use that element, lol, bad luck). This one gets a buff. Looks balanced to me. Could adjust skill quanta to  :darkness :darkness, of course.

Ps: regenerating HP is not part of Cannibalize mechanic, its related to troll.

Offline MarvaddinTopic starter

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Re: Cannibal Troll | Cannibal Troll https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28893.msg371065#msg371065
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2011, 07:06:06 am »
More opinions about this?

Offline MatrimKK

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Re: Cannibal Troll | Cannibal Troll https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28893.msg371072#msg371072
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2011, 07:25:31 am »
not really disagreeing but how does  :darkness fit the themantics?

Offline TheManuz

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Re: Cannibal Troll | Cannibal Troll https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28893.msg371133#msg371133
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2011, 09:56:18 am »
I think +3 | +3 is too much. Life has mitosis, it can easily spam food for the troll.
Also, the troll is regenerating: after a single cannibalize, a 7|7 regenerating troll is nearly impossible to kill with a single card (except Fire Bolt and similar). It needs 2 poison counters only to stop regenerating, not even damaging him!!!
I think +2 | +2 is more fitting (like growth), and i think the regeneration should be limited to 1.

Offline MarvaddinTopic starter

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Re: Cannibal Troll | Cannibal Troll https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28893.msg371190#msg371190
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2011, 02:02:16 pm »
not really disagreeing but how does  :darkness fit the themantics?
Darkness has things that are considered bad to modern ethics, like Steal, and also has things like Parasite and Devourer. I think it fits it well.

I think +3 | +3 is too much. Life has mitosis, it can easily spam food for the troll.
Also, the troll is regenerating: after a single cannibalize, a 7|7 regenerating troll is nearly impossible to kill with a single card (except Fire Bolt and similar). It needs 2 poison counters only to stop regenerating, not even damaging him!!!
I think +2 | +2 is more fitting (like growth), and i think the regeneration should be limited to 1.
Yes, life has Mitosis, but even if Mitosis creature is a photon, its still an expensive combo that uses 3 cards. This for a 3/3 gain that uses 2 quanta types. Upped Steam Machine has already 15 HP, and gain +4 attack per turn, just using quanta and without other cards. And Water has much more stall arsenal.
Difficult to kill, yeah, nearly impossible, no. Regenerating is a good option vs Fire Shield, or Plague, but you can play Gravity Pull, AM, Rewind, Basilisk Blood, Congeal... Ok, most options here dont kill, but make it useless :D

My opinion: regeneration is ok. About 3/3 being to much, I can agree. I wouldnt like it being 2/2 exactly because of growth. 1/1 = devour; 2/2 = growth; 2/0 = ablaze. How about 3/1 to cannibalize? This would even add Maxwell Demon as effective control for unupped troll. I can think about reducing the initial attack as wel, but reducing the attack gain of cannibalize to less tha 3 would make it useless most times (better just let the creature instead of cannibalize it).

More opinions?

Offline TheManuz

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Re: Cannibal Troll | Cannibal Troll https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28893.msg371204#msg371204
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2011, 02:30:29 pm »
not really disagreeing but how does  :darkness fit the themantics?
Darkness has things that are considered bad to modern ethics, like Steal, and also has things like Parasite and Devourer. I think it fits it well.

I think +3 | +3 is too much. Life has mitosis, it can easily spam food for the troll.
Also, the troll is regenerating: after a single cannibalize, a 7|7 regenerating troll is nearly impossible to kill with a single card (except Fire Bolt and similar). It needs 2 poison counters only to stop regenerating, not even damaging him!!!
I think +2 | +2 is more fitting (like growth), and i think the regeneration should be limited to 1.
Yes, life has Mitosis, but even if Mitosis creature is a photon, its still an expensive combo that uses 3 cards. This for a 3/3 gain that uses 2 quanta types. Upped Steam Machine has already 15 HP, and gain +4 attack per turn, just using quanta and without other cards. And Water has much more stall arsenal.
Difficult to kill, yeah, nearly impossible, no. Regenerating is a good option vs Fire Shield, or Plague, but you can play Gravity Pull, AM, Rewind, Basilisk Blood, Congeal... Ok, most options here dont kill, but make it useless :D

My opinion: regeneration is ok. About 3/3 being to much, I can agree. I wouldnt like it being 2/2 exactly because of growth. 1/1 = devour; 2/2 = growth; 2/0 = ablaze. How about 3/1 to cannibalize? This would even add Maxwell Demon as effective control for unupped troll. I can think about reducing the initial attack as wel, but reducing the attack gain of cannibalize to less tha 3 would make it useless most times (better just let the creature instead of cannibalize it).

More opinions?
I agree on +3|+1. This would limit the regeneration, and add more ways to deal with it.

Offline Jenkar

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Re: Cannibal Troll | Cannibal Troll https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28893.msg371226#msg371226
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2011, 03:22:46 pm »
Regenerative is a passive ability, i suppose?
About cannibalism being a :darkness ability : think about the "parasitic" them of :darkness.
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Offline MarvaddinTopic starter

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Re: Cannibal Troll | Cannibal Troll https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28893.msg371591#msg371591
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2011, 04:51:28 am »
Lol, my bad for not thinking before posting: troll cant cannibalize photon, should be a Rustler at least.

Well, agreed about +3/+1 bonus, will change the card soon.

Edit: Done.




Im also thinking if it would deserve a bit less initial attack, or if the cost for unupgraded skill should be :darkness :darkness Opinions?

Offline TheManuz

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Re: Cannibal Troll | Cannibal Troll https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28893.msg371696#msg371696
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2011, 12:56:19 pm »
Using PhantomFox's theory for casting cost (http://elementscommunity.org/wiki/articles/mechanics-of-creature-cost/):
Creature Value [ie Casting Cost] = Attack + Skill Value + HP modifier + Elemental bonus

According to PhantomFox
Quote
The value of Devour depends on the percentage of creatures that can be devoured by the starting HP plus any irregular synergies like swarm. From Scarab and Otyugh I theorize that Devour is worth 1 quanta per 10%.
For Cannibal troll, the value of cannibalize doesn't depend by HP but by element. The percentage of creatures that can be cannibalized is a little less than 10% (i made a fast count, but should be fine). So 10% = 1 quanta.
But we must count also the growth effect, that is bigger than Otyugh growth effect, so i'll add a +1 quanta.
But the Troll regenerate too. I'll use Heal as a reference: for PhantomFox it's worth 2 quanta. I'll consider that this ability cannot be targeted, but it's free. So i'll stick with 2 quanta. We also consider a -1 for because the ability uses another element. The total skill value is 3 quanta.
Creature nameAttackSkill ValueHP modifierElemental bonusCreature Value [ie Casting Cost]
Cannibal Troll (unupped)430-1 ( :life creatures cost 1 less)6
I'm not sure if i did it all right, but according to these calculations, the creature should cost more, or you should lower the starting values.

 

anything
blarg: