Brawl #2 Suggestions and Feedback

[Anarook]

hoooo-kay guys.
I know everyone is upset but pointing fingers and all this conspiracy crap has to stop.
It's over, it's done - it didn't turn out quite like we wanted, but it is what it is.
Stop being so hostile - this is entirely against the nature of this event.
Leave the fact finding and digging to the brawl masters - they have a far higher chance of finding anything relevant.
If you want to suggest voting changes - maybe something else of concern - go right ahead - but please get away from the angry twitch reactions.
I'm guilty too - but seriously, we all need to take a step back and calm down. Be civilized.   

[glennfoo]

Spoiler for Hidden:

And a last thing towards expert panel members (I will be harsh but there is no offence). By almost always giving your expert votes to team you made the EtG community to adapt a subconsious envy against Expensive Clocks which, in my most honest opinion, caused the sharpshooting. Many voters may actually or subconsiously thought like this:

 "So, Expensive Clocks are the blessed children of the elitist expert panel while the rest of the teams are the black sheeps. Ok then, I am going to use my voting power to buff their opponents and nerf them as much as I can. Death to the experts! Power to the people!"

Okay, so now that you won, you didn't felt anything strange with the votes?
Now to say it fair: Experts don't vote for:

Comics with a lot of images over a good writing(Writer)
Videos that don't bring more than other submissions(OT)
Videos with a bad looking forum over a masterpiece looking forum(Art)

I'm sorry to say it, but it just looked like you tried to impress the voters with good looking submissions or animations, instead of getting a better submission overall.
Also a thing that shocked me is the result of bonus task, where team time had a good video, with a story, and team fire had an actually good looking art, but not as great as that video.

Why you too calindu? I did not agree with what arthanasios said, and I know brawlmasters are being fair as best they can, evaluating each task.
You are not being kind, but yes I agree with you. in round 1-3, experts vote are very powerful as we can notice, but then we all know it is the community votes which matter right?
and in earlier rounds, I start to notice how the voters go about, thus begin the colourful presentation. I am aware of last brawl, and I know this brawl is a little different, so I go with that, and it is creativity in itself. If the voters for brawl 2 are looking at good looking submissions or animations, then why are we being ignorant about the fact? What is not creative in making good looking submissions?  I notice it, so I went that way. what makes a magic show interesing? Anyone can learn the tricks, but if you do not know how to present the tricks, making it believable by narrating the events,  then no one will watch. they will just oh oh oh.. and I do not think we are doing simple work without effort though. Why you too calindu? Yes, I talk with the brawlmasters, and I know they are fair, but please do not condemn the way we present the tasks.
also if you copy the scripts, it is not short. It is just another presentation I thought of, and I told my teammates to do it. I can open a titanpad, copy the script I write out, and you will see it is not short. I plan to present brawl humor differently, and who reads long lengthy comics? the comics is one of the presentation I am very proud of.
Sorry if I offend you.

*Conspiracy Theories!!!

I found it interesting that Fire's minimum votes in pretty much all the rounds was about 14-15 (Actually for most of the polls they were at exactly 14 and 15). I couldn't figure out why the last round was higher, but I guess Naesala found out why...

(Unfortunately, with the low number of actual voters, having a voting block of only 3-4 members would be enough to win the event)

 
What is this?? what is this????? WHAT

so you want stats, I give you stats. I woke up, reading this, and I am curs#$%
yon won last brawl, this comment is one of the most irresponsible I have ever seen. I want to approach this the sandwich method of psychology, ah screw it. you know maths?

team fire 20,15,15,17,16,12,13,13,15,13,12,15,13,13,14,19,11,24,14,13,15,14,14,15,22,15,14,17,19,24,21,21,7,22,25
average= 16.057
variance = 16.739
standard deviation= 4.0914

team water  10,14,13,18,16,19,17,11,17,13,15,14,11,11,10,9,7,14,13,11,17,12,9,15,11,15,13,10,12,13,16,27,16,15 ( you miss a task)
average= 13.64
variance= 13.346
standard deviation= 3.653

team time 16,25,12,15,15,17,18,14,14,10,12,11,18,14,11,9,11,15,9,16,11,9,9,11,21,14,14,17,22,16,11,9,16,17,16( not including challenge with entropy)
average = 14.14
variance = 14.80
standard deviation = 3.848

how the @#$% did you say we get 14, 15 votes minimum? our standard deviation is the widest. and your team is the smallest. oh maybe I should start saying you have a very consistent 9-11 votes.

oh round 6 sharpshooting occured, so cannot count round 6. No problem
 team fire 20,15,15,17,16,12,13,13,15,13,12,15,13,13,14,19,11,24,14,13,15,14,14,15,22,15,14,17
variance = 8.667
standard deviation = 2.94

team water 10,14,13,18,16,19,17,11,17,13,15,14,11,11,10,9,7,14,13,11,17,12,9,15,11,15,13
variance= 8.867
standard deviation= 2.97

team time 16,25,12,15,15,17,18,14,14,10,12,11,18,14,11,9,11,15,9,16,11,9,9,11,21,14,14,17
variance = 14.265
standard deviation = 3.777

conspiracy indeed. Look at the mirror in front of you please, or at least the stats above. so I do not need to spend those nights working, just send submission called ABC, then wait for votes, is it?

meaning this in the end, after analysing, it is not team time who get votes reduced too much, yes of course they got reduced, but it is double account involvement, and team time affected because the challenges and wagers are the most. a lot of people calculated, and calculated again, and then voted, or revoted,  assuming team time is going to get a lot of points, vote instead of opponent teams, who did not do too badly,but not the best either, and sadly it is not one person thinking like that, but a few, thus creating a sharpshooting and yeah, my team end up benefitting, thus a sudden change in the standard deviation. 14, 15 votes my @#$, what are you trying to tell others, boss of last brawl winner?
my teammates oldtrees, kakerlake, themanuz, zergva, dracomageat, and arthanasios, what are you trying to tell them?
I am not going to do for every single round, I do not think I am supposed to do that. It hurts. someone else if you are interested, do for all teams and rounds. But frankly I do not think it means anything, but I hate that theory so so so so much, I cannot believe the venom I am putting in.

EDIT: damm, I regretted doing that. I am being too harsh, all it takes is a good breakfast, and I will cool down. When I read back the message, I do not need to be so venomous about it. I plan to rewrite this whole thing, but then I think I am not getting an apology for the irresponsible thing majofa said, so I do not think I need to modify this post. If I offend others, I am so sorry. I lost control of my anger. It will not happen again.
 But I do not think I will change this post. It really look venomous now. And any joy I have now is gone. 6 weeks? what a stupid way....

[Naesala]

To Everyone: Please do not let this scuffle in the end detract from they joy of Brawl. You had fun on the journey, right? Try to remember that. And also try to rest easy knowing we are fixing the voting system so things like this wont happen again, so don't, please don't, say this wil be your last Brawl. It saddens me every time.


Glen, i encourage you to not feel like the past 6 weeks were a waste. You had fun throughout right? And noone should be accusing your team. Noone should accuse anyone without some stronger proof and even then, I'd prefer accusations PM'd to me and chap for review.


Again, there will be no penalty if someone will come forward. Heck at this point I'd even be happy if everyone who changed their votes away from time would just PM me along with their "reasons" so I can understand.

[Acsabi44]

To Everyone: Please do not let this scuffle in the end detract from they joy of Brawl. You had fun on the journey, right? Try to remember that. And also try to rest easy knowing we are fixing the voting system so things like this wont happen again, so don't, please don't, say this wil be your last Brawl. It saddens me every time.

Nice words, I approve.

Unfortunately this was still my last brawl since shiny>>content, and I'm not too good with shinies. (not that I'm so good with content either, but you get my point)

[RavingRabbid]

I expressed my problem with voting bias before brawl even started to Chapuz, and he told me that there was nothing to worry about.

This could have been fixed before.

[ARTHANASIOS]

To Everyone: Please do not let this scuffle in the end detract from they joy of Brawl. You had fun on the journey, right? Try to remember that. And also try to rest easy knowing we are fixing the voting system so things like this wont happen again, so don't, please don't, say this wil be your last Brawl. It saddens me every time.

Nice words, I approve.

Unfortunately this was still my last brawl since shiny>>content, and I'm not too good with shinies. (not that I'm so good with content either, but you get my point)

Same went with Brawl#1. Shiny >> content, though that is not really the case, beause many good-looking submissions have great content too, and my team (Team Time at Brawl#1) was unfairly underrated. However, that didn't change the fact Nyan Sharks really deserved to win back then and, despite of being hopeless, I fought till the end and participated at Brawl#2, despite I was ready to be axed again without mercy...

[Naesala]

I expressed my problem with voting bias before brawl even started to Chapuz, and he told me that there was nothing to worry about.

This could have been fixed before.

Yes, because obviously we didnt try anything new this time with the intent of trying to reduce bias and problems.

[OldTrees]

@Shiny >> Quality

Brawl 2 is not a perfect example of the Brawl model since we do not have an ideal expert panel. If you want to make any claims about whether the Brawl Model is sufficient for a merit based competition, please examine the art submissions.

I ask you, did the points in the art section correlate with the quality of the submissions?



@Brawlmasters
From my personal observations as an observer of Brawl 1 and a participant in Brawl 2: Your standardization of submissions along with the other changes did increase the correlation between quality and points. Brawl is improving. Hey, even the argument is more civilized and calm than in Brawl 1.

[Drake_XIV]

Just thinking about it...

Team Voting

• Perhaps Brawlmasters can get access to assigning people to team-based membergroups.
• Members of the teams cannot submit votes in the standard polls
• Team as a while must rank the submissions for each tasks ASIDE FROM THEIR OWN.
• This may be handled by a Boss submitting the teams choices via Forum Post in the Voting thread or sending a PM to Brawlmasters.
• Perhaps teams get additional points for voting for the first place team in a round.
• As participants, I am assuming that they will judge more on how it effectively accomplishes the task as opposed to its appearance since they are subjected to the same standard.

Community Voting

• To prevent the use of creating alternate accounts to simply rack up votes, maybe have voting limited to "Jr. Members."
• Mostly takes blame off of teams if there is any further instances of "sharpshooting."

[ARTHANASIOS]

My suggestions are the following:

* Remove the voting of the community. Just hire a bunch of experts and/or Brawlmasters, even more than one per brawl role, and let them vote as objectively as possible and decide the winner by responsible specialists instead of an irresponsible community.
Moreover, if we want to blame someone for our bad rankings, we can fully blame/flame the expert panel!

* Completely remove any voting system. We will just have fun by making submissions each round and discussing about them. Everyone will receive a Forum Brawl award icon and Guild points, except for those who haven't made a submission for every round (in order to encourage activity). If a submission is considered a really crappy joke where no effort was put, the brawlmasters may not count it as a legal submission. That way, everyone is going to have fun and do his/her best without being stressed!

[Drake_XIV]

My suggestions are the following:

* Remove the voting of the community. Just hire a bunch of experts and/or Brawlmasters, even more than one per brawl role, and let them vote as objectively as possible and decide the winner by responsible specialists instead of an irresponsible community.
Moreover, if we want to blame someone for our bad rankings, we can fully blame/flame the expert panel!

* Completely remove any voting system. We will just have fun by making submissions each round and discussing about them. Everyone will receive a Forum Brawl award icon and Guild points, except for those who haven't made a submission for every round (in order to encourage activity). If a submission is considered a really crappy joke where no effort was put, the brawlmasters may not count it as a legal submission. That way, everyone is going to have fun and do his/her best without being stressed!

I think Nae wouldn't mind me quoting here.

I do -not- want to reduce the impact of the community. At all. Period. It's a community event, and I hate the idea of brawl becoming "elitist" as everything else on this forum.

[Rutarete]

Or another way to do it (I thought of this after reading Drake's post ^) is to have one vote per team, instead of ranking each one. While I can see this having its drawbacks (more time required for brawl than the large amount already required, arguments, etc.), it could greatly lessen the current problem at hand. And yes teams would be able to vote for themselves. How the teams themselves would handle this would be up to them.

I wouldn't be opposed to trying this in brawl 3.