Brawl #2 Suggestions and Feedback

[andretimpa]

My conclusion from this is that most Brawlers (myself included) are voting only for their teams.

That's lame in my opininon. I have always voted 1 vote for my team and 1 vote for the team (beside ours) that I think was best. If everyone just votes for themselves and no second votes, then we might just as well forbid participants from voting next Brawl, or keep it to panel voting only.

Well, my opinion is that Brawlers shouldn't be able to vote (I understand if people think this is too radical), as we are the most biased possible voters (there's even nastier things brawlers can do with the current voting system). The rest of the community would need to get more involved in the event, for this to be feasible though.

[OldTrees]

Most of the opposition to allowing temptation to merely vote for a favorite element comes from Merit Purists. Merit Purists prefer the outcome be as close a reflection of skill (including the skill to adapt to challenges) as possible.

This makes it sound like Merit Purists (for example, me) are some radical fringe group whose ideas are based in anything other than reality.

I did not intend to make us sound like that. I was trying to emphasize the opposition comes from a philosophic position rather than a pragmatic position. Normative claim rather than descriptive statement.

However let us take that math:
I will assume a random distribution and give guesses at certain ratios.
15 extra voters
10 would be tempted to have their vote influenced by their favorite element
5 are tempted to have their vote influenced by their favorite element
2 actually have their vote influenced
So from a practical sense, this is to small an influence to matter unless brawl grows*.
However the practical sense is not the only rational sense.

*The worst way it could grow is my second statement to guilds.

This makes it sound like the idea of voting for a favourite element is something that, in general, people don't do.  I'm still not convinced this is the case.

i am known for overestimating the virtue in others however I suspect most of those that currently get caught up in brawl are people that more resistant to that temptation. However do note that I said ~2/3rds of people would be tempted. However with only 6 teams that drops how many would be tempted because not all elements are represented.

[Acsabi44]

My conclusion from this is that most Brawlers (myself included) are voting only for their teams.

I couldn't vote only on my team. I always vote for my team and the one I think has the second best submission.
I dont think voting on your team makes sense. That's not the purpose of teh whole voting. If everybody votes on their team, then to the hell with voting.

[OldTrees]

My conclusion from this is that most Brawlers (myself included) are voting only for their teams.

I couldn't vote only on my team. I always vote for my team and the one I think has the second best submission.
I dont think voting on your team makes sense. That's not the purpose of teh whole voting. If everybody votes on their team, then to the hell with voting.

Everyone votes 1 vote for their team because some brawlers in brawl 1 were tempted to use their only vote for their team rather than for merit.
By giving every brawler 2 votes in brawl 2, the brawlmasters created a vote tax of 1 vote for your team and then 1 more vote to do as you see fit.

I have a policy were I only vote in 2 circumstances:
1) When I feel sufficiently worthy to judge a section, have time to make a merit based vote and see enough of a difference in quality that I can vote using my limited votes.
2) When I am subject to a vote tax and others are relying on me paying the vote tax. (I do not obey the vote taxes of the CIA polls nor individual competitions)*

*However I am willing to "betray" my team and use my vote tax vote as a merit based vote if there is another submission that is sufficiently better than ours. This is extremely rare however it is an extension of why I don't vote tax in individual competitions.

[Anarook]

Wish there was a way to force you to vote for 2 options for either to count...
Like a minimum vote allowed and maximum vote allowed could work wonders in poll setups.

[andretimpa]

Players can still "randomize" the second vote and get the same effect. Something that occurred to me is that we can make Brawlers only vote via PM to Brawlmasters. For example, you must vote (at least in your category) for the previous round for your submission to be valid and you can't vote in your own team. The rest of the community would vote via polls and the results would be added to determine the totals. It's complicated but it is the best I can think of.

[russianspy1234]

or, if the suggestion to create subforums for each team like War has is followed, polls that exclude a team can be posted in each of their subforum that must be "filled"

[OldTrees]

Wish there was a way to force you to vote for 2 options for either to count...
Like a minimum vote allowed and maximum vote allowed could work wonders in poll setups.

1) Brawl participants are subject to a vote tax. Aka they must give 1 vote for their team per category per round.
2) We should not mandate uninformed voting in a merit based competition.
3) If we implemented your policy then people with deep but specialized expertise (Like Myself) would be forced to choose to not preform the vote tax (aka betray their team) or preform uninformed voting on tasks that they are not as knowledgeable in.
4) If we agree on 1, 2 and 3 then it follows that your policy is not ideal.

[Zso_Zso]

The problem is that most participant only cast 1 vote for their team (this is seen easily when comparing the number of people voted to the sum of votes cast -- much closer to 1:1 ratio than 1:2), so the 2-vote solution has failed. The community at large is not voting, only a handful of non-participants cast their votes.

So, the results of the event are determined by either:

• A very small number of casual voters outside the teams (if we assume all participants vote their teams canceling out each-other)
• Padded votes by "recruited" voters from Kong / friends / classmates etc.

Since we have no way of bringing in significant number of non-participants to vote based on merit -- most of those who are interested in Brawl from the community are already participating -- the voting system needs to be modified to work for internal-voting.

I suggest the following system:
Instead of casting 1-2 votes for the best in each category, voters should be required to submit a complete ordering, i.e. rank the entries from best to worst. The votes (orders) should be sent to Brawlmasters by PM instead of using the forum poll system (which does not support the ordering anyway). 

• Votes that list only a single best team are simply disqualified, forcing the participants to rank-order the other entries.
• Votes from "recruited" members, i.e. posters who just registered during the Brawl and do not have posting history are ignored
• Votes from experts / Brawlmasters are given higher weights

In this system, even if each participant places his/her team at the top, still ranks the others and when the votes are summed up the bias cancels out and merit-based results emerge. Different Experts can be appointed with higher vote-weight for different type of tasks, e.g. Vrt for Art, forum admin for Forum Expert, a card curator for card design etc.

[Fippe94]

Or if vote by PM is implemented, just forbid people to vote for their own team.

[Pella]

Or if vote by PM is implemented, just forbid people to vote for their own team.

This causes a problem if a player objectively views his/her team's submission as the best one, on the merits.

[Acsabi44]

I think what I submitted for the revamped CIA voting would work here as well.
Make ppl give a score to each submission, then rank submissions based on the average score.