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Offline ColorlessGreen

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Re: The Return of FGei https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49887.msg1089052#msg1089052
« Reply #96 on: July 26, 2013, 04:54:45 pm »
I'd just like to reiterate that absolutely nothing I have said should be construed as an attack on or a condemnation of Pella, the GDoc spreadsheet, or the methods used. Most of the updated assumptions (IMO) are improvements, and I have nothing but gratitude to Pella for taking on this task.

I just think there's value in a discussion about the new assumptions, and I hope this thread arrives at (as close as possible to) community-wide agreement on the specific formula used.

Offline Keeps

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Re: The Return of FGei https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49887.msg1089054#msg1089054
« Reply #97 on: July 26, 2013, 05:04:43 pm »
I also want to iterate that as well.  On this thread Pella and I seemed to have an issue.  However, in private we discussed and found ourselves on better terms.  Pella is taking on a huge challenge and I don't want to take that away either.  This isn't about Pella, more of an argument against even the original stat-master sheet.  There are a lot of details and for the first time I've seen some really dynamic and different decks that all do very well.  It's more of a compliment to Pella and the deck makers that might force us to make sure the stats are as close to accurate as possible.

Offline PellaTopic starter

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Re: The Return of FGei (for v1.32x) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49887.msg1094658#msg1094658
« Reply #98 on: August 26, 2013, 01:51:35 pm »
- The GDocs spreadsheet now contains the data that Submachine collected for the RoL/Hope deck.
- The list of decks to be tested now contains the most recent data from the GDocs spreadsheet.
- Decks on the aforementioned list now have four potential ratings.  Refer to the legend in this post for more information.
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Offline Submachine

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Re: The Return of FGei (for v1.32x) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49887.msg1094701#msg1094701
« Reply #99 on: August 26, 2013, 06:07:15 pm »
I noticed that the RoLhope deck and Pdials were swapped in the OP.
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Offline PellaTopic starter

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Re: The Return of FGei (for v1.32x) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49887.msg1094714#msg1094714
« Reply #100 on: August 26, 2013, 07:00:54 pm »
I noticed that the RoLhope deck and Pdials were swapped in the OP.
Define "swapped".

After reading your note, I did notice the RoL/Hope deck showed the PDials-35 deck code.  That's because I copied PDials to make the new entry and forgot to overwrite the deck code.  I did not notice any RoL/Hope info in the PDials section, so the use of the word "swapped" confuses me.
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Offline Submachine

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Re: The Return of FGei (for v1.32x) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49887.msg1094772#msg1094772
« Reply #101 on: August 26, 2013, 11:45:45 pm »
Yes, I just didn't find any more suitable word for it, sorry. ^^"
And we keep driving into the night
It's a late goodbye, such a late goodbye...

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Offline PellaTopic starter

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Re: The Return of FGei (for v1.32x) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49887.msg1094923#msg1094923
« Reply #102 on: August 27, 2013, 11:14:24 pm »
Recently, some folks here and in ColorlessGreen's UEI thread were discussing the method that the GDocs spreadsheet uses to calculate FGei.  In particular, people noted that the GDocs spreadsheet uses an average card spin rate for all FGs, while the STATMASTA™realtec spreadsheet (hereinafter called "STATMASTA") uses FG-specific card spin rates.

Today, I researched this issue for more than four hours.  Yes, four.
EDIT:  After posting this, subsequent discussions and research revealed that I misunderstood the timeline of the events I found in my research.  As a result, I drew faulty conclusions.  I have stricken bad info below, and inserted some good info in yellow.  My most abject and sincere apologies to the individuals I named as having committed errors, and to the Community at large.  I should have done this better the first time.


DISCOVERIES
1) STATMASTA calculates an individual FGei(c) for each FG, then calculates FGei(cn) for the deck by adding together all the individual FGei(c)'s.
2) STATMASTA's individual FGei(c)'s are calculated using DarkWeaver's original calculations, which are hard-coded into the spreadsheet.
3) DarkWeaver's original calculations are wrong.  Various people, including DarkWeaver, noted errors in his method.*  In addition, an empirical study of FG drop rates provided widely differing results.  Many of DarkWeaver's figures were off by more than 10%.  At least one was off by more than 20%.
*) DarkWeaver's original post provided highly detailed statistics.  After correcting (some? most? all?) of his errors, he never again posted statistics with the same level of detail.
4) The empirical study mentioned in #3 is outdated.  The FG decks have changed since that study, and those changes affect the drop rates.
5) Even if DarkWeaver's (and, by extension, STATMASTA's) drop rate figures were completely correct, they are outdated.  See #4.

6) XenoSim™ (Xenocidius's Slot Machine Simulator) produces a "cards per game" statistic.  This statistic is exactly equivalent to the drop rate statistic that FGei uses.
7) XenoSim™ was last updated in 2011.  Although doubtful, it is possible that Zanz has modified the algorithm since that update.

CONCLUSIONS
1) STATMASTA is inaccurate, if not useless.  Its core calculations rely on figures that are both wrong and outdated.
2) The Community has no information that is both accurate and current on individual FG drop rates for Akebono or Osiris.

RECOMMENDATIONS
1) The Community must obtain accurate, current individual FG drop rates for Akebono and Osiris, by one or both more of the following methods.
    a) Use XenoSim™ to calculate expected drop rates for each FG.  Use of this method assumes that its algorithm still matches the algorithm the game uses. 
    b) Conduct large-scale drop rate testing similar to the previous study.
    c) Duplicate DarkWeaver's original calculations for the two changed FGs.  This is the preferred method.
2) Modify the GDocs spreadsheet to use the figures from recommendation #1a known good FG spin rates to calculate more useful FGei's.
3) Use the current GDocs spreadsheet to achieve recommendation #1b.  Compile all current and future data to calculate empirical drop rates for each FG.
4) Seek a member of the Community both able and willing to achieve recommendation #1c.


I sent a PM to Xenocidius, asking about the algorithm and such.  Once I know the tool is good, I will spend a few days an hour to achieve recommendation #1a.  Once I've done that, achieving recommendation #2 will take just an hour or two.

Recommendation #3 will take more time.  Like, a bunch more.  Don't even ask how long.  I don't know.  I have several RL priorities that are much higher.  Once recommendation #2 is complete, recommendation #3 is little more than a backup plan, or maybe a method for testing future changes to XenoSim™.  I suspect it would be a low priority for the Community at that point, anyway, and the data aren't going anywhere, so no big.  ;)
The release of v1.4 "sometime" may change things so drastically that none of the above matters, anyway.  Stay tuned.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 08:01:05 pm by Pella »
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Offline eaglgenes101

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Re: The Return of FGei (for v1.32x) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49887.msg1094948#msg1094948
« Reply #103 on: August 28, 2013, 02:31:30 am »
Let's start pasting FG deck codes into http://xenocidius.webs.com/slotmachinesimulator.htm .
At least that should be somewhat more accurate, since there's a good chance the slot machine algorithm is the same.
I'll start with akebono:

10000 games
Cards per game: 0.526
Extra electrum per game: 622.44

Card   Won (total)   % of all cards won   Won (per game)
Shard of Focus   365   6.94   0.036
Tower Shield   141   2.68   0.014
Gravity Tower   153   2.91   0.015
Elite Armagio   371   7.06   0.037
Massive Dragon   2386   45.40   0.239
Unstoppable   135   2.57   0.013
Titan   126   2.40   0.013
Chimera   373   7.10   0.037
Overdrive   1206   22.95   0.121

ZenoSim didn't recognise SoF, so I subbed SoG for it.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 02:38:42 am by eaglgenes101 »
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Re: The Return of FGei (for v1.32x) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49887.msg1094954#msg1094954
« Reply #104 on: August 28, 2013, 03:31:00 am »
I screwed up.  Please revisit the no-longer-screwy post.
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Offline eaglgenes101

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Re: The Return of FGei (for v1.32x) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49887.msg1094957#msg1094957
« Reply #105 on: August 28, 2013, 04:03:07 am »
Ok, I'm going to run Osiris in the sim the same way. Someone else do the modding please, though?

Edit: Done!

Osiris:
10000 runs
Cards per game: 0.504
Extra electrum per game: 634.74
Card   Won (total)   % of all cards won   Won (per game)
Shard of Focus   386   7.66   0.039
Unstoppable   433   8.59   0.043
Trebuchet   383   7.60   0.038
Time Tower   191   3.79   0.019
Turtle Shield   130   2.58   0.013
Rewind   396   7.86   0.040
Eternity   144   2.86   0.014
Precognition   384   7.62   0.038
Pharaoh   2593   51.45   0.259
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 04:08:17 am by eaglgenes101 »
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Re: The Return of FGei (for v1.32x) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49887.msg1094961#msg1094961
« Reply #106 on: August 28, 2013, 04:23:20 am »
And for exact calculations, let's go over the process: (Someone correct mistakes if I make them, please)
So the AI picks 5 cards. If it is a pillar card, then it randomly repicks that card, unless it already tried to repick that card 10 times, in which the 10th repick automatically becomes the pick.
And then it runs slot machine on those 5 cards.

Correct?
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Re: The Return of FGei (for v1.32x) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49887.msg1094963#msg1094963
« Reply #107 on: August 28, 2013, 04:28:35 am »
And for exact calculations, let's go over the process: (Someone correct mistakes if I make them, please)
So the AI picks 5 cards. If it is a pillar card, then it randomly repicks that card, unless it already tried to repick that card 10 times, in which the 10th repick automatically becomes the pick.
And then it runs slot machine on those 5 cards.

Correct?
I'm not entirely satisfied with this explanation because it predicts an extremely low probability of winning towers from FGs. My observations while grinding for trainer edition did not match the prediction.

 

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