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Offline MarsuTopic starter

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Tired Treant | Tired Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46955.msg1043278#msg1043278
« on: February 16, 2013, 05:03:38 pm »
NAME:
Tired Treant
ELEMENT:
Life
COST:
:life
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
5 | 6
TEXT:
At the end of turn, Tired Treant turns into an Emerald Pillar.
NAME:
Tired Treant
ELEMENT:
Life
COST:
:life
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
7 | 8
TEXT:
At the end of turn, Tired Treant turns into an Emerald Tower.

ART:
shadow303
IDEA:
Marsu
NOTES:
Concerns about the synergy with Fractal have been brought up. I have none. Discuss.
SERIES:
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 07:17:54 am by Annele »

Offline treebeard xiii

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Re: Tired Treant | Tired Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46955.msg1043282#msg1043282
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2013, 05:08:07 pm »
It could be op with fractal with its base attack it rivals spark for damage output but not particularly costly in terms of the pillar effect maybe an attack reduction might balance it a bit
love makin my decks unusual if able. Chaos and luck are widely regarded as different i beg to differ just refer to :entropy but for those in the know also refer to :time and :death.

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Offline MarsuTopic starter

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Re: Tired Treant | Tired Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46955.msg1043287#msg1043287
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2013, 05:15:16 pm »
The reason why I basically think this would not be OP with Fractal is the following:
To get the additional Pillars from this card, you need quite some of them in your deck first to make sure you can play this card. If you have enough to ensure this, further Pillars aren't worth anything anymore, as you can afford the Treants anyway.

Offline treebeard xiii

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Re: Tired Treant | Tired Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46955.msg1043290#msg1043290
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2013, 05:21:53 pm »
i was more concerned with damage output from fractal upped for 33 quanta is 77 damage in one turn with full hand fractal and as life decks end up with a lot of quanta anyway because of rustlers and cheap creatures it is perfectly possible
love makin my decks unusual if able. Chaos and luck are widely regarded as different i beg to differ just refer to :entropy but for those in the know also refer to :time and :death.

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Offline Drake_XIV

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Re: Tired Treant | Tired Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46955.msg1043300#msg1043300
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2013, 05:55:46 pm »
Not to mention this will be making quanta for it...

On another note, this is possibly my favorite piece by shadow303.

Offline krackocloud

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Re: Tired Treant | Tired Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46955.msg1043320#msg1043320
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2013, 06:45:10 pm »
The only thing I could suggest is up the cost by 1 quanta or something. Besides that, it's a nice idea.

Offline MarsuTopic starter

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Re: Tired Treant | Tired Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46955.msg1043322#msg1043322
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2013, 06:50:29 pm »
I'm happy to change the cost, but I'll do some testing and math before.
For the time being, 56 damage for 24 quanta might sound high, but with sparks, you have 40 damage for 0 quanta...
Not to mention their ridicoulusly srong synergy with SoP that this card doesn't have.
Editing my test results soon.

/e: Difficult to get some hard facts. Played SparkTal and upped SparkTal to compare and tried to create an average draw with a good Fractal Treant deck to see how much damage this can deal on which turn. My opinion has not changed so far:

-If you use a low amount of quantum because the Treants give you much later on, the start is ridicoulusly slow and you get outrushed.
-If you use rather many pendulums/pillars, this deck can make a decent rush. However, most of the additional Pillars are wasted, and the overall effectivity is roughly the same as an unupped SparkTal. (Which is not exactly considered OP)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 07:24:54 pm by Marsu »

Offline dragonsdemesne

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Re: Tired Treant | Tired Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46955.msg1043346#msg1043346
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2013, 07:43:41 pm »
It won't be op with fractal at all.  It'll be on par with giant frog.  The unupped version has the same attack as frog, so it's exactly as OP(UP?) as fractal frogs, and for only one turn, and the upped version costs 50% more for slightly less than 50% more damage than frogs.  You'll get pillars after, but you'll also lose your attackers on any subsequent turns.  If you're going for an otk, the only advantage over frogs is a slightly higher burst damage; if you're going for more long term damage, it has a disadvantage over frogs.

For another fractal comparison, compare it to ball lightnings(spark).  You get +2 damage per attacker over both versions with this card.  You also get +2/+3 quanta cost with this card, which will be recouped over 2 turns.  You need a higher quanta investment than fractal spark/balls, but you'll get it back eventually, if you don't make the kill right away.  That could let you more easily pay for the next fractal treant burst, but the next spark/ball burst doen't -need- paying for, other than the fractal itself.  Also, ball lightnings will trigger death effects like bone wall or soulcatcher, which is often done with such a deck, whereas treants will not. (or at least they shouldn't, based on that wording)

The way I look at this card is more like a fractalable lightning bolt that only works on players and leaves a pillar behind.  (and has shield counters, but then so do lightning bolts)  Or I look at it as a slower version of a pillar that deals damage when played.

Offline Pineapple

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Re: Tired Treant | Tired Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46955.msg1043362#msg1043362
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2013, 08:29:43 pm »
After the first Fractal, a treantal deck is already more cost-attack efficient than sparktal.

Food for thought.

Also, @Marsu, its pillar-generation ability should not lower any valuable measure of "effectivity". Are you saying that Fractal with a 2-cost 5|0 is slower and easier to counter than Fractal with a zero-cost 3|0, and similarly between a 3-cost 7|0 and a zero-cost 5|0?

The main concern is that with a limit to hand size, cost (even without factoring in treeant's ability) is less of an issue than total attack. 8*5=40, while 8*3=24: an almost-twofold increase in burst damage. There is a reason why some people opt for Golden Dragons over Archangels when using RoL/Hope.

Of course, dragon makes a fair point with the frog comparison.

Btw, your table's messed up.

Offline MarsuTopic starter

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Re: Tired Treant | Tired Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46955.msg1043450#msg1043450
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2013, 01:47:13 am »
Thanks, table is fixed. That happens when you do it manually. :-)
Answering your questions tomorrow.

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Re: Tired Treant | Tired Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46955.msg1043474#msg1043474
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2013, 03:39:13 am »
On another note, this is possibly my favorite piece by shadow303.

It's nice art, not art-gallery worthy in my opinion.

On topic: not quite sure how I would use this, but if one could lobotomize it, would the ability go away and keep this as itself? (Followup: Mitosis.)
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Re: Tired Treant | Tired Treant https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46955.msg1043549#msg1043549
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2013, 02:21:01 pm »
I like the idea, but I can't see any use for it aside from a fractal combo, maybe adrenaline + PU on the upped version, and maybe (maybe) splashing it in a rush, but even then I don't know how it's be useful.

Do you have any thoughts as to when it'd be used?
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