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Offline Drake_XIVTopic starter

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Machian Falcon | Machian Falcon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44101.msg1008040#msg1008040
« on: October 15, 2012, 08:03:22 am »
NAME:
Machian Falcon
ELEMENT:
Air
COST:
4 :air
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
4 | 2
TEXT:
:air :air : Sonicboom
All creatures take one damage and all immaterial cards can be targeted for one turn.
NAME:
Machian Falcon
ELEMENT:
Air
COST:
4 :air
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
4 | 4
TEXT:
:air :air : Sonicboom
All creatures take one damage and all immaterial cards can be targeted for one turn.

ART:

IDEA:
Drake_XIV
NOTES:
Machian Falcon will damage and kill itself with Sonicboom.

There are three things that destroying Immaterial cards will accomplish.

One, prevent Quinting Machian Falcon for repeated mass CC.

Two, dealing with shields with reflective properties.

Stuck here is the issue of affecting innately Immaterial creatures like Phase Dragon or things affected by Quint.  The way I see Immaterial in creatures is that they exist in a different plane.  However, for them to cross over and to attack in this, they tune themselves so that their base frequency allows them to render themselves temporarily in this realm to attack.  A sonicboom would create a distorted enough sound wave to distort this connection, effectively killing them in this plane.
SERIES:

« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 11:47:01 pm by Drake_XIV »

Offline Naesala

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Re: Machian Falcon | Machian Falcon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44101.msg1008044#msg1008044
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2012, 08:12:07 am »
You lost me at "destroys all immaterial cards"
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Offline Drake_XIVTopic starter

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Re: Machian Falcon | Machian Falcon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44101.msg1008045#msg1008045
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2012, 08:17:42 am »
You lost me at "destroys all immaterial cards"

I had meant it as a way of tackling reflective shields [mirrors being broken by shockwaves], but that by itself seemed to situational.  So I expanded the range to all Immaterial objects, since EA|PA isn't that often used.

Offline Cheesy111

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Re: Machian Falcon | Machian Falcon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44101.msg1008050#msg1008050
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2012, 08:51:39 am »
This seems like clear-cut elemental hate against aether.  I do not like it at all.

Offline Drake_XIVTopic starter

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Re: Machian Falcon | Machian Falcon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44101.msg1008051#msg1008051
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2012, 08:53:54 am »
This seems like clear-cut elemental hate against aether.  I do not like it at all.

Because :light doesn't have more initially Immaterial cards than :aether. [Reflective, Hope, Morning Glory].  And PA doesn't grant similar status to Permanents.

Offline choongmyoung

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Re: Machian Falcon | Machian Falcon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44101.msg1008052#msg1008052
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2012, 08:58:26 am »
Destroying immortals? No.. It's killing quints...
It's elemental hate(:light and :aether) and destroying the concept of immaterials.
Circular Logic is true. Thus, Circular Logic is true.

Offline Drake_XIVTopic starter

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Re: Machian Falcon | Machian Falcon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44101.msg1008053#msg1008053
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2012, 09:07:54 am »
Destroying immortals? No.. It's killing quints...
It's elemental hate(:light and :aether) and destroying the concept of immaterials.

Not Elemental Hate when you consider the range [:fire :light :aether :earth :life].  Especially with :aether and :earth expanding it to other elements.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Machian Falcon | Machian Falcon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44101.msg1008069#msg1008069
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2012, 10:18:29 am »
Destroying immortals? No.. It's killing quints...
It's elemental hate(:light and :aether) and destroying the concept of immaterials.

Not Elemental Hate when you consider the range [:fire :light :aether :earth :life].  Especially with :aether and :earth expanding it to other elements.
Seraph:  :fire/ :light (aka  :light)
Morning Star:  :light
Reflective Shield:  :light
Emerald Shield:  :life
Immortal:  :aether
Phase Dragon:  :aether
Quint:  :aether
Aether Nymph:  :aether
Anubis:  :time/ :aether (aka  :aether)
Protect Artifact:  :earth

Range: [ :aether :aether :aether :aether :aether :aether :earth :earth :earth :light :light :life]

I consider* this Elemental hate for 2 reasons:
1) It targets a very small range of specific elements
2) It has drastically difference benefit depending on the element it is facing. This benefit is large enough to make balancing both possibilities simultaneously a nightmare. However the abusive usage of Protect Artifact helps narrow this gap.

*It is not clear cut
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 10:22:44 am by OldTrees »
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Offline summerz88

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Re: Machian Falcon | Machian Falcon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44101.msg1008072#msg1008072
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2012, 10:27:47 am »
Immaterials are that for a reason, and you cant only have 1 counter to something in a game, if there were more cards like this, then maybe, but otherwise just no.

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Re: Machian Falcon | Machian Falcon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44101.msg1008132#msg1008132
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2012, 05:35:26 pm »
Immaterials are that for a reason, and you cant only have 1 counter to something in a game, if there were more cards like this, then maybe, but otherwise just no.

Just for the sake of pointing it out:
Purify is the only counter to poison
Sanctuary is the only counter to quanta denial
Sanctuary is the only counter to Nightmare

This was also kind of to see people's thoughts on affecting Immaterial creatures after I did some analysis for OT.
Spoiler for Hidden:
This likely has to do with the way the game is coded.

Rain of Fire, Pandemonium, Thunderstorm, Flooding, Plague, etc. all select appropriate targets and apply their effects one at a time instead of all at once. Because of the way that the 'targeting' works, Immaterial creatures are immune to mass-CC.
Wrong.

Those spells do not affect immaterial targets because when the game loops through creatures to deal damage/poison them, it specifically makes sure the creature is not immaterial. In other words, Zanzarino wanted them to not affect immaterial creatures. If he wanted to make, for example, Thunderstorm affect immaterial creatures, he could (though that would be bad for consistency).
Based on this information, is it possible to code AoE or Targeting spells that ignore Immaterial?
As I implied, that's what the code would normally do had Zanz not specifically made those spells not affect immaterial creatures (for AoE). As for targeting spells ... it is possible but suboptimal and makes for bad game/card design.

One key thing here is the "controversy" of affecting Immaterial creatures.  Before the introduction of SoW, it seemed to me that the targeting, much less affecting, Immaterial creatures was regarded as Taboo, save for the passive effects of several shields.  But even with the addition of SoW to the card pool, there seems to be some hesitance as to negatively affecting Immaterial creatures.

The issue here that I see is that if Immaterial targeting would be implemented, how would the cost be balanced?  Would it cost more, since it has to put up with the minority of Immaterial [Comparing the abundance of CC to lack of PC] and the extra cost of using a Quint on a creature?  Or would it have to cost less, since the range of affected creatures is much smaller than the standard CC, assuming the range is limited to Immaterial?

Considering Mass CC, any inclusion of an idea that would affect Immaterial would reduce the value of Immaterial, lowering the costs of creatures that have it and the casting cost of Quint.

In terms of targeting CC, again, SoW has made it clear that it is possible, but, as stated above, there is a question as to how it is balanced.  I would say costs would be increased by 1 :underworld and, as it being allowed and maybe accepted grows, Quint will need a buff to compensate, probably by dropping to 3|2 :aether cost.  But that is only under the assumption that more Immaterial CC ideas come to light.

I really don't expect this to be well accepted by the community in terms of affecting such an effect, but if something like this were to be added, the question lies.  How would it be balanced?

For reference, OT's analysis on the current idea.
Spoiler for Hidden:
I believe I may have given you my thoughts on the targeting of Imamterial creatures before.  So, disregarding the view of it so far, would you say that Machian Falcon is balanced?  Would the range of Immaterial objects count as being subjected to Elemental Hate?
1) The linked card does not necessarily target. (Nightfall effects "all creatures" and does not target)
2) 4 :air + 1 card + hp support => 4 attack +  :air :air: All creatures take 1 damage and Immaterial cards (Permanents and Creatures) are destroyed.
This is a powerful ability. Unupped the hp support is a trio. Upgraded it is a duo.
4 :air + 3|2 cards + 1 :earth|0 + 3 :light => 5 attack + :air :air :light: All creatures take 1 damage and Immaterial cards (Permanents and Creatures) are destroyed.
The repeatable damage seems strong but fits the cost of the support.

However the destruction of Immaterial cards is a problem:
6 :air + 1 card => 2 :earth|1 :earth + 1 card : Destroy pillar stack

Yes "Destroy Immaterial cards" is elemental hate. It exhibits the large difference between non hate and hate usages that makes simultaneous balancing hard/impossible. (aka the Elemental Hate problem)

Offline summerz88

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Re: Machian Falcon | Machian Falcon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44101.msg1008147#msg1008147
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2012, 06:22:54 pm »
the counter to poison is healing or killing them faster... i will grant you that some shields effect immaterials but packing 6 shields in a deck is going to hurt you in the long run, but packing 6 of these probably wouldnt.

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Re: Machian Falcon | Machian Falcon https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44101.msg1008158#msg1008158
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2012, 07:39:25 pm »
To repeat for emphasis:
Whether it suffers the Elemental Hate problem or not is not clear cut.
The main reason it might suffer the Elemental Hate problem is the difference between dealing 1 damage and destroying the creature in question. If the card merely dealt 2 damage to immaterial creatures then it would be still be Elemental Hate but probably would not suffer the Elemental Hate problem.

Remember Elemental Hate is a warning that the Elemental Hate problem might exist.



One key thing here is the "controversy" of affecting Immaterial creatures.
Mostly false. There is no controversy about affecting Immaterial creatures. There is a controversy about targeting Immaterial creatures but that is irrelevant. It is possible for area of effect effects to effect all creatures without targeting any. Thus this is irrelevant to this thread/card/topic.

The question of how affecting only a subset of creatures would affect balanced costs is still relevant.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 07:41:53 pm by OldTrees »
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