*Author

Offline moomooseTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2737
  • Reputation Power: 37
  • moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.
  • I'm big in Japan.
  • Awards: Winner of the Mark Redesign competition!
moomoose's rules for card development https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43884.msg1005326#msg1005326
« on: October 05, 2012, 03:43:34 pm »
this is sort of a personalized version of OT's "Card Design: An attempt at a comprehensive guide (A community effort I hope)" http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,16655.0.html that has gone by the wayside as of late.  it will contain my thoughts and rules/regulations for card creation used in the my personal card development process.  hopefully it will help some in their card development.

(rules are ranked by their order in the process, not by their importance)

rule #1: do something new
the CIA forum has been around a while, and a ton of ideas have already been created.  the purpose of the CIA forum, in my opinion at least, is the provide zanz with novel ideas that could improve the game.  if you think making cards is fun but the idea you came up with isnt novel, it isnt worth submitting and taking up a spot in the polls, which are limited to 18 for each poll at the end of the month.  if it has been suggested before, but the offering is just another way of doing it, or under another element, and/or with a different name, its time to stop and think of something else, or completely overhaul the card.  there are few exceptions to this, but for the most part, i just start over and save the spot in the polls for someone who presents a novel card.  however, if the card is in the game, and you think you can provide a twist to it that will be interesting and provide new gameplay mechanics, this is a valid exception that most people can follow.  also when there have been previous attempts at a given card name (hydra comes to mind), don't bother, I'm sure people are tired of it.  there are other ideas which have been attempted or suggested many times and the general public and/or zanz doesnt like them, if someone says "this has been suggested a million times" (card graveyard) or "zanz has said he will never do this" (card graveyard, too), stop the thread and thank those for letting you know. 

rule #2:  KISS- keep it simple, stupid.
we have all seen the cards that have a million stipulations crammed into the card text with abbreviations and varying degrees of clarity.  dont do this.  it looks bad and is usually hard to understand.  some things are okay to be left off the card text(ie destruction of a bone wall is not equivalent to the destruction of any other permanent in relation to a given card mechanic based on the destruction of permanents by your opponent), but most aren't. 

rule #3: art does matter
i spend a lot of my time searching through publicly available for use artworks, if i cannot find art for it, i will not post the idea.  art not only gives people their first impression of your card idea, but it also gives a little help to zanz should he want to use the idea.  personally i find it infuriating when someone posts in level 0 without including any card art, or even worse, no card image.  there are tools provided that make this simple, and if i could learn to use the free image editing site pixlr, you can too.  i wrote more about card art in the last page of OT's thread.  using ms paint art was funny once, every time since has been insulting.  do not steal art from artists just because you did a google images search and really really really really like it.

rule #4: respect the elements
certain elements have mechanics that are soundly theirs-
aether has creature immaterial, lobotomize
air has damage doubling
earth has boosting hp in large chunks and permanent immaterial
darkness has stealing (health, cards)
death has on-death effects
entropy has mutants
etc
if you even think you are borrowing a mechanic from another element, include the cost of that element in some way, be it the card cost (element of the card), card ability cost (cost per use), drain of quanta (costs 1 relevant quanta each turn while in play), or a creative interaction (such as more potent when you have some relevant quanta when played, its more effective, it doesn't even have to necessarily be quanta that it interacts with, there is no box, just get them to have synergy beyond taking the mechanic away from the element)- the latter is tough but if done elegantly can really be a boost to the card.  when i cannot find a way to incorporate the borrowed element, i start over.

rule #5: balance the idea, reasonably
when i first started making cards, this was the hardest part.  whats this skill worth?  again, OT's post goes into this a little bit.  however, you will never appease everyone, especially newer folks- who's responses you should weigh less than those who are established players/card designers, but when you reach the point where people are suggesting +/- 1 here or there, it generally should be good to go.  some cards a bit trickier due to the existence of card such as fractal, mitosis or even supernova.  people are usually quick to bring these up if overlooked, and adjustments will usually be necessitated, and in some cases, the card may just be scrapped entirely. 

if something else comes to mind ill add it.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 03:54:42 pm by moomoose »
moose dont say moo.

Offline Arwulf

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 111
  • Reputation Power: 2
  • Arwulf is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • Play a card, any card!
Re: moomoose's rules for card development https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43884.msg1005330#msg1005330
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2012, 04:08:49 pm »
Good guidelines, except for nr #3, where you insinuate that people who develop cards without including art are retards and not worthy of your attention. I say this since artwork does not influence the game mechanic in anyway. To illuminate:

- When is the last time a tournament or league is organized where the format is based on artwork?
- Has there ever been a player who remarked that "it's time for new cards since I'm tired of the familiar artwork"?

Fun and jokes aside, developing mechanics and artwork are two entirely different disciplines and profiency and contributions in only one of them should not be regarded as 'unworthy'.

I would understand anyone defending that submitting a card with only artwork and no mechanic is not acceptable, though, since mechanics are the limiting/deciding factor in accepting refusing a card while artwork is maleable without interfering with gameplay.

Greetz

Edit: I should point out that I would like (from my perspective) to leave artwork to the 'pro's' for the final phase, if the card is accepted (or at least for later stages), not to encourage laziness; i.e. lack of art should not discourage anyone from submitting a card.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 04:14:50 pm by Arwulf »
Greatly improvides

Offline moomooseTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2737
  • Reputation Power: 37
  • moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.
  • I'm big in Japan.
  • Awards: Winner of the Mark Redesign competition!
Re: moomoose's rules for card development https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43884.msg1005335#msg1005335
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2012, 04:33:31 pm »
you dont have to make great artwork, but putting effort in shows.  there are many links to publicly available free to use art for people to use in their card art.  drawing a stick figure and calling it art lowers the quality of the card submission.  there are many tutorials on image editing, which is what i personally do as my 'from scratch' images usually look rather poor (bunnify effect/polymorph i am relatively proud of, however).  check out the last page of OTs post for my card art guide of sorts.

if someone has card art but no mechanic, that would be best placed in a post in the card art section, not the CIA submissions areas.

also, i wouldnt use the word 'retard', maybe lazy and/or ignorant (ignorant means ~'doesn't know', not retarded or a jerk, to be clear).

copy/pasted from the last page of OT's thread:

Card art- Even if you are not an artist such as vrt, pipo, kami, cryo, thalas, ET or etc, you can still find and/or make decent art for your card with a little time and elbow grease.

sources:
1)  http://freakmutantmonster.blogspot.com/
Hawanja has gracefully permitted anyone and everyone to use his art of creatures for their cards, many of his creatures are on the silly side, but he does have many others more serious in nature.  he also has a deviant art page, which is just a subset of his blogspot page.  * make sure to credit Hawanja as the artist on the card and a link to the actual creature in the artist field of the card post such as "http://freakmutantmonster.blogspot.com/2010/11/rock-wurm.html" and not just "http://freakmutantmonster.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2012-03-18T22:01:00-07:00&max-results=10"
2)  deviantart.com
Almost all of the art on here is copyrighted, and not immediately available for use.  Some images on there are, however, listed as "creative commons" (CC) and may be used, but *not altered*.  Even if you do find a piece of artwork that you really enjoy, you can sign up for an account (if you do not already have one) and very politely, professionally (ie proper school grammar/spelling/etc) and informatively request their permission to use their art.  Sometimes they won't respond, other times they may have questions before giving permission, and if you're lucky they will consent.  Make sure to credit the artist in the card art and in the CIA post.
3) http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/board,22.0.html
The card art CIA subforum has many already created works for public use.  You can also request artwork, but your mileage may vary depending on who you know and who knows you.
4) http://www.sxc.hu/
A lot of the images on here are photography, however there are some images which are digitally designed, or more abstract.  This is a good source to go to for images to add together and edit.  Use of http://pixlr.com/editor/ and/or photoshop can lead to some decent art simply by resizing and/or cropping the art, placing the images on top of one another as 'layers' and then reducing the opacity of the top layer or changing the layer style from "normal" to "multiply" or "overlay".  SG also had a tutorial on editing art in photoshop which I have found useful.  http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,34313.0.html
5) http://muro.deviantart.com/
You can doodle on here, play around with the various brush tools and see if something inspires you.  I find the interface simple and easy to handle.  It can be fun if nothing else.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 04:38:40 pm by moomoose »
moose dont say moo.

Offline OldTrees

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 10297
  • Reputation Power: 114
  • OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • I was available for questions.
  • Awards: Brawl #2 Winner - Team FireTeam Card Design Winner
Re: moomoose's rules for card development https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43884.msg1005347#msg1005347
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2012, 05:23:13 pm »
Good guidelines. I personally think that level 0 can host card images with no or poor art as a place holder while art and mechanics are being discussed. Level 0 merely needs a complete idea not a complete card. (Incomplete ideas are pre-Smithy and complete cards are Crucible). I agree with everything else including cards being good to go when balance discussion is fine tuned to +/- 1 :underworld.

Since your rules are at such a broad level, you might want to include how to make a great card instead of merely a good card.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 05:26:14 pm by OldTrees »
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
Ask the Idea Guru: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32272.0.htm

Offline moomooseTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2737
  • Reputation Power: 37
  • moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.
  • I'm big in Japan.
  • Awards: Winner of the Mark Redesign competition!
Re: moomoose's rules for card development https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43884.msg1005353#msg1005353
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2012, 05:33:44 pm »
alright, i can go through some examples of the workflow and thought processes for some of the cards that have made it to level 3 or 4 (assuming that is the qualifier for 'great'?).  ill try to pick some that i recall going through some of the filtering mentioned in the OP. 

but to make a new 'great' card, generally speaking it usually has to be completely novel, take a glance at those in level 4. 
psion- introduces a novel avenue for creature attacks- mixing them with spells
phoenix- a novel way for a creature to revive itself- changing to another card
crusader- a novel interaction for a creature with permanents (weapons)- gaining the ability and boosting stats
soi- a novel way to spawn cards into your hand/deck- getting a set number of (mostly) random cards
minotaur/gotp- a novel penalty for discarding- damage to HP
overdrive- a novel damage/hp adjustment method- done continuously over time
schrodingers cat- a novel way to trigger death effects- without death
voodoo doll- a novel interaction between a creature and the opponent's HP- effecting/damaging a creature effects/damages the opponent

so it really comes down to the idea itself having not been done before, and not being complicated to understand.  the rest of card design is to facilitate it to be desired by others, notably zanz, so that's where theme (name/element/card type), balance (hp/atk/card cost/ability cost) and card artwork come in.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 05:50:35 pm by moomoose »
moose dont say moo.

Offline OdinVanguard

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4984
  • Reputation Power: 67
  • OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.
  • Keeping The Jotnar at bay
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 4th Birthday Cake
Re: moomoose's rules for card development https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43884.msg1005389#msg1005389
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2012, 09:29:33 pm »
Thought it would be good to give some info for those wanting to to add originality to their artwork.

Often you can get new and intersting effects out of just a stock photo and a little photo-editing work (just remember to credit the original).
-For UNIX or OSX, GIMP works really great and is a bit more responsive and powerful than the online editors. (There is a windows version too called GIMP2 ... some have had install issues though).
-- http://www.gimp.org/

For those who enjoy making 3D art, I believe DAZ studios is still giving away some really excelent 3D modeling and rendering programs for free!
-http://www.daz3d.com/
--Hexagon (3D modeling and some texture / render ability)
--Bryce7 (An awesome scenery / rendering program with a ton of built in texture libraries)

On most of the cards I submit these days I use GIMP and / or Hexagon and Bryce7 for artwork.

Also, there is an ongoing art class in the Card Art section. Its a good way to get some practice and feedback at all levels: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/board,365.0.html
Whether the glass is half full or half empty is a moot point. It is always filled to the brim. It is only a matter of by what. The real question is: What fills you?
If your zombie plan is
kill -9 `ps l | awk '{print $2" "$3" "$9}' | grep "Z" | awk '{printf("%s ",$2)}'`
You might be a unix junky

Offline moomooseTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2737
  • Reputation Power: 37
  • moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.moomoose is a Gargoyle, dangerous and everlasting.
  • I'm big in Japan.
  • Awards: Winner of the Mark Redesign competition!
Re: moomoose's rules for card development https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43884.msg1005407#msg1005407
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2012, 10:35:39 pm »
thanks odin, more options for editing is always better.  everyone feels different using different tools.

my thought process on psion:
we were working on the 13th element, so this was a different set of circumstances than i normally go into card design with.  the first thing i thought of was the name, psionist- it was actually originally came to mind due to the xmen character, psylocke, being able to use weapons produced by her mind.  the mechanic for a creature had to be related to the mind in some way, the mechanics i considered were-
generates a card on successful attacks (or has a chance to)
deals extra damage for each card in hand
has no attack value, but has a spell that deals damage as an ability
- it was concern over using the above as CC that changed my mind to ~casts on the opponent... well, then its just an attack as spell damage... -bingo.

this is actually often the case (for me at least) that the best ideas you can come up with aren't always the first ones that you have in mind.  so sticking with your first idea steadfastly could be detrimental to the potential mechanics you could think of.

at the time, it was just the brain storming phase of the project, and stat creation/balancing didn't happen until later, and card art much later.

there were several paths to go down, based on how we had set up the division of what creatures we aimed to create.  it could be a small creature, a medium creature, or a large creature.  i believe it was slotted for a medium creature from the beginning, but i could be wrong.  that meant that the creature would do between roughly 3-7 damage.  but given that attacking as a spell is more or less a momentum (but with the potential to be reflected) charger jumped out as a very suitable model.  the original stats were given a reduction in hp relative to the charger, as gravity tends to be beefy, and the attack to be lower as well, and reduce the cost accordingly.  in the project, the respective stats were ~3|4 and 6|4, each costing 4 mind quanta.  the hp on the upped card was intentionally left below the attack in order to give it a vulnerability to maxwells demon, a problem that the charger does not face.

later the project was essentially shut down, and the psionist|psion was moved to aether, which was still a rather good fit.  i felt that 3|4 was a tad low and bumped it up to 4|4 for 4 :aether, and 6|4 for 4 :aether, essentially being a free psuedo-momentum, again similar to charger.  when i made the final version long after it hit level 3, i bumped up the hp of the upgraded to 6|6, but honestly can not recall if that was simply a typo or intentional.  in any event, zanz dropped the atk|hp to 5 apiece in the upgraded version.

the card art was originally intended to be from hawanja, the art currently being used by sinister mind, and was previously used in wanderer | traveler (which didnt make it out of level 1, one of those cases where even if i think its a good idea, it doesnt mean its going to go to level 2, but i digress), but i didnt feel it was *active* enough, so went out looking on deviant art.  i couldnt find any creative commons (CC) cards, which could be used without asking permission, so i found a card i liked, from a person i had asked and gotten permission to use their art, and used that.  later after psion had been used to inspire a shard idea, and it was mentioned that the psion itself could later potentially be put into game, as the mechanic itself had been, vrt was kind enough to create art for psion without being prompted (to my knowledge, so at least not by me), which finally ended up being the art used in game.
moose dont say moo.

 

blarg: