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Offline RutareteTopic starter

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Concepts https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25821.msg329270#msg329270
« on: May 08, 2011, 02:12:30 am »
This thread is to discuss different concepts, to help people understand them if needed, and explore farther into them.
I think it will be fun, and if this thread doesn't die within a week or so i'd like to have a Weekly Concept Discussion.
What do you think about that?
Before getting to the first discussion part of the  thread, i'm going to clarify what a concept is in this case. A concept is something which doesn't have a set definition. Some common ones are right and wrong, fairness, etc.
If you have a specific concept you wish to talk about, put it at the bottom of your post and i'll start forming a list in this post.
Since there are so many concepts to start with, i'll go with one recommended by a friend: Luck.

What is luck? How can we look at it?
Luck's been in my whole life, but it took me a while to find out what it refers to, and what that does. To me luck is the chance you always hope for. But then i ask "Is bad luck the chance i don't hope for or the chance i don't want?"
So, let's discuss!

List of upcoming topics:
1. Value
2. Identity/Personas
3. Ideas
4. Freedom

Edit: list above reset
It is the greatest mystery of all...
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[22:50] <Jyi> meaning gets lost in translation... even in the same language.
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Offline Nepycros

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Re: Concepts https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25821.msg329292#msg329292
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2011, 03:22:35 am »
Luck is more of timing. Since physics allow no frame for true arbitrary action, that simply means you are moving in the allowed zone of physics, to which there is no luck. Entropy, the disorder of any closed (or open, if you consider the universe to be open) environment, still follows in the laws of thermodynamics to have descended from a state of high order, therefore, they followed an allowed path. Your luck, good or bad, is simply whether or not you followed the allowed zone in the manner where events occurred that didn't result negatively.

As for how we can look at luck, well, I'd consider that to be something like, "How can we look at something without being able to observe it?" It's not arbitrary, therefore we can assume that the events WILL take place for sure, and we have to draw whatever positives or negatives we can from it. This does not mean, however, that we cannot influence things.

As for my concept, I choose Value, but I think we're supposed to consider Luck until we've all had our say. By Value, I mean how do we determine value, what do we reference against it, and how do we humans compare towards objects that supposedly have high value.
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Offline RutareteTopic starter

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Re: Concepts https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25821.msg332614#msg332614
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2011, 02:38:14 am »
Bump to get discussion going; the discussion needs more than just nepycros and I
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Concepts https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25821.msg332964#msg332964
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2011, 07:40:35 pm »
New topic for later: Freedom (what characteristics define freedom both positively[by their presence] and negatively[by their absence].)
For Luck:
Luck is the symptom of probability being random despite having a most likely outcome. If this symptom is positive it is called 'good' luck conversely if it is negative it is called 'bad' luck.
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Offline EmeraldTiger

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Re: Concepts https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25821.msg332986#msg332986
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2011, 08:10:42 pm »
Isn't luck just the pessimistic view of positive and negative effects of events that occur in our lives .
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Re: Concepts https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25821.msg332998#msg332998
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2011, 08:22:27 pm »
Isn't luck just the pessimistic view of positive and negative effects of events that occur in our lives .
Yes.

Luck is simply something that we as human beings seem to be a judge of, if it was a positive effect or negative.

For example: We instantly and subconsciously say that the person that wins the Lottery is Lucky
Then we tend to say to a person whom has a seriously bad day or week, "man thats just bad luck" or "man that's unlucky"

We always intend to blame things despite any of us denying it, it is only natural as a human being, that we find the source responsible for our positive/negative events in our lives, and that source is what we call, Luck.

"Yeah, I got unlucky/lucky"
"Tough luck man"
"Good luck man"
"I hope I get lucky tonight/today"
"Don't Jinx it" (Jinxes seem to be mostly associated with bad luck, perhaps simply another word for it)
"Wow, You're lucky"
"Lucky you"
"That guy, just has some serious Bad luck"
"You got lucky this time!"
"Yeah? Well Bad luck!"
"Damn it, why do I have such Bad Luck?"

etc.

such everyday quotes are my proof for my description.





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Re: Concepts https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25821.msg333003#msg333003
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2011, 08:27:16 pm »
I'd say that luck is how we choose to recognize the effects of probability. "Good luck" is the conscious recognition of probability outcomes that have positive effects on us, or the attribution of such outcomes to probability alone (regardless of whether that's correct -- how many people do you know who try to shrug off compliments, or claim helplessness, by invoking luck). "Bad luck" is the same regarding negative effects. If we ignore the role of probability, or misattribute its role to something different, we don't recognize any luck at all.

Of course, if we were all omniscient, there wouldn't be nearly as much room for the idea of luck -- but we're not, we don't know all the events that lead up to all the things that happen in our lives. But we do often know the general odds of something happening or not happening, and we can label happenings as "luck."

Example 1: you could say it was "good luck" that caused you to be accepted into a very selective college. It's certainly possible that an admissions officer used a random number generator to select your application and admit you, but it's more likely that the person read your application (the product of your personal efforts), judged it to be worthy, and recommended you for acceptance. Whatever happened, you have no way of knowing exactly what it was, so you can choose to call it "good luck" if you wish.
Example 2: You have exercised, eaten healthily, and lived in a clean environment all your life. Now you have cancer. The doctors can't tell you what caused it (something you did, something you didn't do, some genetic predisposition that would have screwed you over no matter what, magic, voodoo, ancient curse, whatever). Because you have no information on how it happened, the only descriptive explanation you have left (insufficient as it may be) is "bad luck."

(Not at all presenting this as a complete theory, just throwing it all out there.)

Offline RutareteTopic starter

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Re: Concepts https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25821.msg333100#msg333100
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2011, 11:02:19 pm »
So far the general view seems to be 'an optimistic/pessimistic view on things'.
Can there be luck (good or bad or other) without an opinion? Is there luck involved with the subconscious mind?

I think luck is an opinion, and without it life would probably be pretty straightforward. It's kind of hard for me to imagine that.
As for the second question, I really have no idea yet as to an answer. I look forward to seeing your thoughts on it.
I think we'll wait another week before changing topics
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Re: Concepts https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25821.msg333114#msg333114
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2011, 11:21:40 pm »
Luck is everything outside of our personal control. We tend to concentrate on those things we do control, so we underestimate the role of luck and overestimate the role of effort. It makes sense to do this so that we will make an effort, rebound after failure, take risks, etc. instead of curling up in a ball or feeling crushed by the weight of the world. However, the downside is that we tend to be too hard on those who do not succeed, including ourselves.

Offline RutareteTopic starter

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Re: Concepts https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25821.msg336509#msg336509
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2011, 10:57:55 pm »
Ok, some things to consider:

1. Is this thread worth continuing?
2. Should I try concepts from a different angle?
3. Or is the philosophy section (chaining to this thread) just too small at the moment to generally give a good amount of activity?
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Concepts https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25821.msg336535#msg336535
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2011, 11:48:41 pm »
Perhaps it is just time to move to the second topic?
Perhaps each of these topics should have a separate thread?
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Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Concepts https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25821.msg336619#msg336619
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2011, 01:43:39 am »
Perhaps it is just time to move to the second topic?
Perhaps each of these topics should have a separate thread?
Excellent idea, OldTrees! Let's talk about threads. Should this topic have a separate thread? When is a topic separate enough from another one to deserve its own thread?

 

anything
blarg: