Broken Mitosis Mutants

[Marvaddin]

I have just realized that the Mitosis skill is avaliable for mutants. Unnecessary to say, this is not fair, because mutants skills cost 1 or 2 quanta, when Mitosis is supposed to generate another creature for its cost.

In my game, Chaos Lord got a Gravity Nymph with Mitosis for 1 . And he was generating Gravity Nymphs for 1 quanta. To use Mitosis card, you should not only pay the quanta, but also pay the creature cost. Generating a creature that costs 9 (or even more, could be a dragon) for 1-2 seems unfair to a point I couldnt measure. Im ok with Deja Vu, it can only be used once. But this... Chaos Lord also got a burrowed graboid with Mitosis, and then was creating a lot of Shriekers. If this was supposed to happen (Graboid cost is not that high), I suppose the generator creature wouldnt be burrowed, and so could be affected by CC.

Well, so Im starting a petition to remove Mitosis from the mutant skills.

What you guys think?

[OldTrees]

Mutation is balanced by the average value and the unreliability. Steal is a powerful skill that mutants get but everyone is fine with it because it was rare enough.

[Marvaddin]

Yes, it is unrealiable, because there are bad skills like burrow. But when it comes, it seems much more broken than Steal or any other mutant skill. Why dont you try it? Go to the trainer and play some matches vs Chaos Lord. I suppose you didnt have it against you yet.

Anyway, it could generate mutants instead. Nymphs are already pain generators, and I dislike FG having them, but creating them for 1 looks really outrageous.

[EmeraldTiger]

try using this. take out 1 QT for the AI to use it.
(http://helltgivre.free.fr/elements/?deck=zJ6qqz56u6z56uaz5717z47amz57apz57q7z480h8pn)

by EmeraldTiger

Hover over cards for details, click for permalink

Deck import code : [Select]

6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6u6 6u6 6u6 6u6 6u6 6u6 6ua 6ua 6ua 6ua 6ua 6ua 717 717 717 717 717 717 7am 7am 7am 7am 7am 7ap 7ap 7ap 7ap 7ap 7ap 7q7 7q7 7q7 7q7 7q7 7q7 80h 80h 80h 80h 80h 8pn

[killybob]

i've never found this a problem. i have faced lots of enemies who ended up with a mutant with mitosis and really the chances of them having something significantly powerful is really too low (added with the likely hood of actually achieving mitosis) to pay much attention too. although i think it would be nice if it spawned another mutant instead of another of the actual card.

[teffy]

I opened a topic (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,21987.0.html) in the bug section a week ago, because I thought that mitosis costs of 1-2 are broken, especially on high damage creatures. I thought that zanz could have forgotten to change mitosis costs for mutation.

[Dm]

Maybe not as harsh as remove it. It's hard for that to happen, for sure, but I think that Mitosis should really go for the original cost of the creature instead of 1-2. When you look at it by one side, you see

"Oh, it's hard to get a good creature with mitosis.."

But when you look at the other side, just ask that Dragon with mitosis cost around 1-2.

[BluePriest]

I think people are being too hard on this combo. It would be real hard to pull off if it had the full cost of the creature. Mitosis decks are usually built around mitosis due to its high cost. mine as well remove mitosis if you are going to make it cost the cost of the creature for mutants. It would be too hard to pull off unless you were in a really long game. For it to be long enough you are probably facing FG's. Oh wait, fgs arent meant to be used for balancing.
/topic

[Kael Hate]

So how easy is it for you to pull off this combo?

Are you really only complaining because one of the weaker AI6 got a slight boost?


Its a fun thing and powerful when it all comes together, but generally its weak to rely on.  Come back when you've dominated the pvp tourney with it and I'll change my opinion maybe.

[Marvaddin]

I think people are being too hard on this combo. It would be real hard to pull off if it had the full cost of the creature. Mitosis decks are usually built around mitosis due to its high cost. mine as well remove mitosis if you are going to make it cost the cost of the creature for mutants. It would be too hard to pull off unless you were in a really long game. For it to be long enough you are probably facing FG's. Oh wait, fgs arent meant to be used for balancing.
/topic

Exactly. And what would you feel if your opponent, human or not, get a dragon with mitosis 1? Its not about balancing FG, its about balancing the game. Creating creatures like Dragons and Nymphs for 1-2 and in game, not in hand, doesnt seem unbalanced?

You say its balanced by the unreliability. Lets have a look at the mutants skills. They already include Steal, Destroy, Devour, Momentum, Growth, and now Endow, to list just some of the already useful skills, and now it needs to include this possibility too? How many useless skills really are? Before this, using a Druid to mutate was already good, most useful things than not, and now this? Is it necessary to give it another chance of "if I get lucky you are done" beyond the others it already had?

It beats completely the purpose of the card, generating creatures by a fair cost. And feels also inconsistent, because mitosis is a spell, not a creature skill. Sure there is Steal and Destroy, but these affect permanents and this is a form of game balance, I think.

We are not talking about FG here, but is Chaos Lord one of the weakest? He has some randoness, so sometimes he can be easy, but how many times you lost to him because he just got a creature with Devour, Destroy, etc, in early game? Easy, heh? There are at least 10-12 easier FG, no matter what deck you use. And its just getting worst, each time most useful skills are added, while weak skills, like that entropy cat, not added why? But this is not the point. The point is, creating any creature that costs a lot for 1, in game, is unfair, period.

Maybe there are options. Maybe just creatures that cost 3 or less could have the Mitosis skill, for example, Im also wanting to gather some other suggestions, so we can vote.

[Ekki]

Exactly. And what would you feel if your opponent, human or not, get a dragon with mitosis 1? Its not about balancing FG, its about balancing the game. Creating creatures like Dragons and Nymphs for 1-2 and in game, not in hand, doesnt seem unbalanced?

You have a low possibility of having Mitosis as a skill, another chance of getting a "bad" creature with mitosis, even a Spark. You have to use at least a 2-card combo, and fuel the mitosis skill (if not, you're relying in a few elements, and you have even less chances of getting an useful Mitosis'd mutant). Not to mention you have to use a base creature (the mutated one), and that the combo is slow and pretty rainbow...

I think it's balanced, and just a buff to Mutation/Improved Mutation. BTW, have you ever seen an OP Mutation deck in PvP? I haven't, and I personally can't imagine one.

[BluePriest]

Lets Start off by removing the stuff that talk about FG's

Exactly. And what would you feel if your opponent, human or not, get a dragon with mitosis 1? Its not about balancing FG, its about balancing the game. Creating creatures like Dragons and Nymphs for 1-2 and in game, not in hand, doesnt seem unbalanced?

You say its balanced by the unreliability. Lets have a look at the mutants skills. They already include Steal, Destroy, Devour, Momentum, Growth, and now Endow, to list just some of the already useful skills, and now it needs to include this possibility too? How many useless skills really are? Before this, using a Druid to mutate was already good, most useful things than not, and now this? Is it necessary to give it another chance of "if I get lucky you are done" beyond the others it already had?

It beats completely the purpose of the card, generating creatures by a fair cost. And feels also inconsistent, because mitosis is a spell, not a creature skill. Sure there is Steal and Destroy, but these affect permanents and this is a form of game balance, I think.

We are not talking about FG here, but is Chaos Lord one of the weakest? He has some randoness, so sometimes he can be easy, but how many times you lost to him because he just got a creature with Devour, Destroy, etc, in early game? Easy, heh? There are at least 10-12 easier FG, no matter what deck you use. And its just getting worst, each time most useful skills are added, while weak skills, like that entropy cat, not added why? But this is not the point. The point is, creating any creature that costs a lot for 1, in game, is unfair, period.

Maybe there are options. Maybe just creatures that cost 3 or less could have the Mitosis skill, for example, Im also wanting to gather some other suggestions, so we can vote.

Now lets remove things that are contradictory

Exactly. And what would you feel if your opponent, human or not, get a dragon with mitosis 1? Its not about balancing FG, its about balancing the game. Creating creatures like Dragons and Nymphs for 1-2 and in game, not in hand, doesnt seem unbalanced?

You say its balanced by the unreliability. Lets have a look at the mutants skills. They already include Steal, Destroy, Devour, Momentum, Growth, and now Endow, to list just some of the already useful skills, and now it needs to include this possibility too? How many useless skills really are? Before this, using a Druid to mutate was already good, most useful things than not, and now this? Is it necessary to give it another chance of "if I get lucky you are done" beyond the others it already had?

It beats completely the purpose of the card, generating creatures by a fair cost. And feels also inconsistent, because mitosis is a spell, not a creature skill. Sure there is Steal and Destroy, but these affect permanents and this is a form of game balance, I think.

Now we are left with randomness
Maybe there are options. Maybe just creatures that cost 3 or less could have the Mitosis skill, for example, Im also wanting to gather some other suggestions, so we can vote. Note Contradictory because you said before graboids were a problem and this wouldnt fix that

You must Remember several things when using Mutation. All those skills you listed as being good, your opponent could also gain if you use it as a form of CC.

Hatch, Freeze, Burrow, Destroy, Steal, Dive, Heal, Momentum, Paradox, Lycanthropy, Scavenger, Infection, Gravity Pull, Devour, Mutation, Growth, Ablaze, Poison, Deja Vu, Immaterial, Endow, Guard, or Mitosis.

23 skills you can get. You are just talking about Mitosis though. So you cant even count other skills

Exactly. And what would you feel if your opponent, human or not, get a dragon with mitosis 1? Its not about balancing FG, its about balancing the game. Creating creatures like Dragons and Nymphs for 1-2 and in game, not in hand, doesnt seem unbalanced?

You say its balanced by the unreliability. Lets have a look at the mutants skills. They already include Steal, Destroy, Devour, Momentum, Growth, and now Endow, to list just some of the already useful skills, and now it needs to include this possibility too? How many useless skills really are? Before this, using a Druid to mutate was already good, most useful things than not, and now this? Is it necessary to give it another chance of "if I get lucky you are done" beyond the others it already had?

So in the end we are really left with just your first paragraph.

Exactly. And what would you feel if your opponent, human or not, get a dragon with mitosis 1? Its not about balancing FG, its about balancing the game. Creating creatures like Dragons and Nymphs for 1-2 and in game, not in hand, doesnt seem unbalanced?

No, it doesnt seem unbalanced because you have a 1/23 chance of it happening. I got a better idea. Why not instead of waiting for the mutation combo, I just play a Dragon, then mitosis, and cast SoR on it? That seems a lot simpler