Constructed Design Theory [Part 1:Resilience]

[OldTrees]

By now most are familiar with my card cost theory derived from the current cost of cards in the game. Despite how well it describes the cards in the game it has some large intuitive flaws in it. This series of design theory threads will attempt to cover in detail the components of a more intuitive design theory even if the result will be a more complex formula.

To start with we will discuss Resilience.

Resilience is a characteristic of a card that describes the duration of that card's effects. No effect is permanent although some are only stopped by the end of the match.

To make the start of the discussion even simpler we will start with HP of creatures.

Part of this discussion will be the attempt to quantify relative value between hp values.
To work as a baseline 4hp will be worth 1unit. If a creature with 5hp lasts on average 150% as long as 4hp then 5 would be worth 1.5 units.

So begin. What is relevant to the discussion of resilience?

Lightning|Thunderbolt
Thunderstorm|Lightning Storm
Unstable Gas|Unstable Gas
Shockwave|Shockwave
Snipe (Weapon Skill)
Unstable Gas (Creature Skill)
Infection (Creature Skill)
Nightfall|Eclipse
Drain Life|Siphon Life
Liquid Shadow|Liquid Shadow
Voodoo (Creature Skill)
Liquid Shadow (Creature Skill)
Plague (Sacrificial Creature Skill)
Scavenger (Creature Skill)
Skull Shield|Skull Buckler
Plague|Improved Plague
Alfatoxin|Alfatoxin
Alfatoxin (Creature Skill)
Plate Armor|Heavy Armor
Basilisk Blood|Basilisk Blood
Guard (Creature Skill)
Basilisk Blood (Creature Skill)
Paradox (Creature Skill)
Lycanthropy (Creature Skill)
Chaos Seed|Chaos Power
Pandemonium|Pandemonium
Fire Bolt|Fire Lance
Fire Shield|Fire Buckler
Rain of Fire|Firestorm
Growth (Creature Skill)
Rage Potion|Rage Elixir
Rage|Rage (Creature Skill)
Gravity Pull (Creature Skill)
Gravity Shield|Gravity Shield
Momentum|Unstoppable
Devour (Creature Skill)
Gravity Pull|Gravity Force
Chimera|Chimera
Catapult|Trebuchet (Permanent Skill)
Thorn Carapace|Spine Carapace
Holy Light|Holy Flash
Heal(Creature Skill)
Blessing|Improved Blessing
Endow(Creature Skill)
Swarm (Creature Skill)
Ice Bolt|Ice Lance
Inflate (Creature Skill)

[az4rel]

well I suppose the first thing we should consider are the early game damaging or creature removing  spells
- the "cheap" CC-.
 spell                   |      damage

fire bolt                       3 in early game
rage potion                 5
rain of fire                  3  in early game
pandemonium            max.5 in early game
chaos seed                 max. 5 in early game
ice bolt                       2  in early game
drain life                    2   in early game
reverse time              only quinted, mummy and skelly immune.
poison all kinds         hp/potion counters.  usually 1, if coming from a creature it can and will grow.
Lightning                    5
Shockwave               4/ instakill if frozen
gravity pull                could be a situacional instakill
rain of fire?               3
thunder storm          1
holy ligth                   10 for dark and death.

since spells are the most imediate way of killing a creature they chould be used to balance the standart resilience vaiues.
 I've always feel safe at +5Hp.
resilence could be derived from the average turns a creature could survive and work as intended with its given Hp, also low attack ability creatures have less resilence due to reverse time and lobo.

tell me what you think is this what you intendes or am I doing it wrong ???

                                     

[OldTrees]

Yes the CC should be considered first when attempting to quantify relative lifespans. I think that only the hp dependent CC will change its effect when hp changes so things like reverse time would be useful in calculating the actual baseline but can be ignored when quantifying the relative resiliences.
5 Lightning|Thunderbolt
1 Thunderstorm|Lightning Storm
1 Unstable Gas|Unstable Gas
4 Shockwave|Shockwave
3x Snipe (Weapon Skill)
1 Unstable Gas (Creature Skill)
(x^2-x)/2 Infection (Creature Skill)
2y Drain Life|Siphon Life
x Liquid Shadow|Liquid Shadow
x Liquid Shadow (Creature Skill)
x Plague (Sacrificial Creature Skill)
x/2 Skull Shield|Skull Buckler
x Plague|Improved Plague
2x Alfatoxin|Alfatoxin
2x^2-x Alfatoxin (Creature Skill)
nx Guard (Creature Skill)
Paradox (Creature Skill)
Chaos Seed
Pandemonium|Pandemonium
3y Fire Bolt|Fire Lance
x Fire Shield|Fire Buckler
3 Rain of Fire|Firestorm
5|6 Rage Potion|Rage Elixir
5|6 Rage|Rage (Creature Skill)
Gravity Pull (Creature Skill)
Gravity Shield|Gravity Shield
Devour (Creature Skill)
Gravity Pull|Gravity Force
Thorn Carapace|Spine Carapace
10 Holy Light|Holy Flash (exception to the norm)
2y Ice Bolt|Ice Lance
(x^2+x)/2 Inflate (Creature Skill)
So how do we calculate/measure/gather data on how much more resilient 5hp is than 4hp?

[Rutarete]

Yes the CC should be considered first when attempting to quantify relative lifespans. I think that only the hp dependent CC will change its effect when hp changes so things like reverse time would be useful in calculating the actual baseline but can be ignored when quantifying the relative resiliences.
5 Lightning|Thunderbolt
1 Thunderstorm|Lightning Storm
1 Unstable Gas|Unstable Gas
4 Shockwave|Shockwave
3x Snipe (Weapon Skill)
1 Unstable Gas (Creature Skill)
(x^2-x)/2 Infection (Creature Skill)
2y Drain Life|Siphon Life
x Liquid Shadow|Liquid Shadow
x Liquid Shadow (Creature Skill)
x Plague (Sacrificial Creature Skill)
x/2 Skull Shield|Skull Buckler
x Plague|Improved Plague
2x Alfatoxin|Alfatoxin
2x^2-x Alfatoxin (Creature Skill)
nx Guard (Creature Skill)
Paradox (Creature Skill)
Chaos Seed
Pandemonium|Pandemonium
3y Fire Bolt|Fire Lance
x Fire Shield|Fire Buckler
3 Rain of Fire|Firestorm
5|6 Rage Potion|Rage Elixir
5|6 Rage|Rage (Creature Skill)
Gravity Pull (Creature Skill)
Gravity Shield|Gravity Shield
Devour (Creature Skill)
Gravity Pull|Gravity Force
Thorn Carapace|Spine Carapace
10 Holy Light|Holy Flash (exception to the norm)
2y Ice Bolt|Ice Lance
(x^2+x)/2 Inflate (Creature Skill)
So how do we calculate/measure/gather data on how much more resilient 5hp is than 4hp?

Look at what it CAN survive and what takes multiple spells (of the same one) to kill it. 5hp can survive an upped Oty for a bit. It can also survive drain life/ice bolts for 4hp, (while the 4hp creature dies) which, the time required to get the 10 quanta (without spending any) would be (i'm guessing here) an average of 3 turns. 5hp can take one more turn with poison.

[TimerClock14]

I had started working on a spreadsheet that listed all the creatures in the game (with HP greater than 0), and next to it, all the cards that deal damage to creatures. I forgot about it and eventually stopped working on it, so it's unfinished, but here it is: >link< (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AokbSsM9MdkzdG5ldHR5NV8wSTlEbEhNZGxxSU05SGc&hl=en&authkey=CPyHs94H)
I think it might be helpful for you guys here ^_^

[az4rel]

not sure if this would do any help but here is some stuf i made bases on timers spread sheet.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?hl=en&hl=en&key=tNn6j2JpVjqocgYt2z1dIVQ&authkey=CJSt5Hc#gid=0

edit: is unfinished but i got to make some homeworks.

[OldTrees]

not sure if this would do any help but here is some stuf i made bases on timers spread sheet.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?hl=en&hl=en&key=tNn6j2JpVjqocgYt2z1dIVQ&authkey=CJSt5Hc#gid=0

edit: is unfinished but i got to make some homeworks.

That spread sheet is useful. Thanks.
Now we just need someone to give their quantified opinion on the relative resiliences.

[ZephyrPhantom]

First of all, it's good to know a new theory is coming out.

Second of all, there should be 2 known facts about resilence -
Spell = 0 (Spells trigger immediatley)
Rs of Permanent > Rs of Creature (there is much more CC than PC).

The bolts and Antimatter are probably the trickiest to calculate here because their effect grows over time or has a long term effect respectively.

Third, regarding this discussion  of creature HP, I say we begin at 0 and 30  (Lowest/Highest, Spark and Massive Dragon/Elite Armagio respectively), and work inward until we find a medium that requires no guessing.

So, where do 0 HP and 30 HP fit on the scale of resilence?

0 HP is probably worth 0-1 units (possible decimal value here) due to the fact it requires a second card for the creature to become useful and can trigger death effects.

For 30 HP, I will use Massive Dragon to calculate first since it has less factors to judge.
Massive Dragon is an 8 | 30 creature with Airborne.
This means it alone takes -
12 | 6 for 6 Lightnings to kill it.
101 quantum for 1 fire bolt to kill it.
151 or quantum for 1 of their bolts to kill it.
8 to turn the card into a creature that heals your opponent for 8 HP each turn.
7 + Shield Slot or 2 + 7 to kill it within 8 turns through poison.

With Armagio how important is the CC factor in relation to it's attack and effect, Gravity Pull?

[Rutarete]

Perhaps a factor tree should be made of the list in the first post, the branches being the means of affecting. Then could use the card usage statistics if necessary.
I think the biggest branches would be Instant Removal (IR) and Removal over Time (RoT).

Then, to more appropriately put cards in their respective branch, take percentages of creatures' base stats for IR and RoT.
RoT mainly includes poison.
IR includes damaging spells.

@OT What methods did you use to create your previous theory?

[OldTrees]

Perhaps a factor tree should be made of the list in the first post, the branches being the means of affecting. Then could use the card usage statistics if necessary.
I think the biggest branches would be Instant Removal (IR) and Removal over Time (RoT).

Then, to more appropriately put cards in their respective branch, take percentages of creatures' base stats for IR and RoT.
RoT mainly includes poison.
IR includes damaging spells.

@OT What methods did you use to create your previous theory?

I am slightly unsure as to what you are describing. If you create such a tree I will add it to the OP.
However does anyone know how to create automatic updating card usage charts? I could update them once a week manually but automatic would be better.

My previous theory was derivative which means it assumed that the game was balanced and then calculated what formula would achieve the same results. So it mostly involved graphing one variable against cost and then mapping a second variable against cost-first variable. This lead to a simple arithmetic formula. While the formula is probably accurate for most ideas it has holes like a 0|10 creature is worth <0 not 3 as the formula suggests.
This theory is meant to be constructed meaning that it could be used to test how balanced the game is.

[Glitch]

I've always thought of HP as having a point of "null-neccessity", at around 6 HP.  Once a creature reaches 6 HP, the net gain in effectiveness of a card is approximately 0 as the HP increases.

How I came upon this conclusion:

CC can be sorted into tiers of how much damage it does.

The lowest tier is one dmaage, done by poison and fire shield.
Next is tier two, where only drain life, ice shield, and unupped otyugh deal exactly 2 damage.  This tier is the MOST IMPORTANT for unupgraded cards.  If a card only has 2 HP, it's worth is dramatically less than something with three HP.
Tier three is where firebolt lies.  I believe chaos seed deals 3.4 damage on average.  This tier is the MOST IMPORTANT for upgraded cards.  In the upgraded setting, the difference between 5 and 6 HP is innumerable.
Tier four is where upgraded otyugh and shockwave lie.
Tier five is for lightning bolt and rage potion.
And lastly, we arrive at tier 6.  There is no damage spell that does six damage.  Save cards like gravity pull and lobotomize, the target might as well have quintessence.  Any attempt at controlling it either requires saving up large amounts of quanta, or wasting two forms of CC.  In 90% of instances, it would be detrimental for the opponent to use spells to kill the creature.  Lobotomization, CC on a stick or reverse time are the better options.

Moving towards the stratosphere, you arrive at the tiers where voodoo doll, armagio, titan, and colossal dragon lie.  Marked only occasionally by the amount of quanta needed for a pump spell, these are the pointless areas, where only gravity pull has a use with the increased HP.  At 6 HP, adding one more point of HP no longer buffs the creature.


Mah 2 cents.

[OldTrees]

Thank you Gl1tch!
That is precisely the kind of response I was hoping to find.
Now just for a few more expert gamers to post their comments upon your breakdown and or post breakdowns of their own. +1karma.

I would especially love GirlsGeneration's comment about hp 6+