Yes the CC should be considered first when attempting to quantify relative lifespans. I think that only the hp dependent CC will change its effect when hp changes so things like reverse time would be useful in calculating the actual baseline but can be ignored when quantifying the relative resiliences.Look at what it CAN survive and what takes multiple spells (of the same one) to kill it. 5hp can survive an upped Oty for a bit. It can also survive drain life/ice bolts for 4hp, (while the 4hp creature dies) which, the time required to get the 10 quanta (without spending any) would be (i'm guessing here) an average of 3 turns. 5hp can take one more turn with poison.
5 Lightning|Thunderbolt
1 Thunderstorm|Lightning Storm
1 Unstable Gas|Unstable Gas
4 Shockwave|Shockwave
3x Snipe (Weapon Skill)
1 Unstable Gas (Creature Skill)
(x^2-x)/2 Infection (Creature Skill)
2y Drain Life|Siphon Life
x Liquid Shadow|Liquid Shadow
x Liquid Shadow (Creature Skill)
x Plague (Sacrificial Creature Skill)
x/2 Skull Shield|Skull Buckler
x Plague|Improved Plague
2x Alfatoxin|Alfatoxin
2x^2-x Alfatoxin (Creature Skill)
nx Guard (Creature Skill)
Paradox (Creature Skill)
Chaos Seed
Pandemonium|Pandemonium
3y Fire Bolt|Fire Lance
x Fire Shield|Fire Buckler
3 Rain of Fire|Firestorm
5|6 Rage Potion|Rage Elixir
5|6 Rage|Rage (Creature Skill)
Gravity Pull (Creature Skill)
Gravity Shield|Gravity Shield
Devour (Creature Skill)
Gravity Pull|Gravity Force
Thorn Carapace|Spine Carapace
10 Holy Light|Holy Flash (exception to the norm)
2y Ice Bolt|Ice Lance
(x^2+x)/2 Inflate (Creature Skill)
So how do we calculate/measure/gather data on how much more resilient 5hp is than 4hp?
not sure if this would do any help but here is some stuf i made bases on timers spread sheet.That spread sheet is useful. Thanks.
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?hl=en&hl=en&key=tNn6j2JpVjqocgYt2z1dIVQ&authkey=CJSt5Hc#gid=0
edit: is unfinished but i got to make some homeworks.
Perhaps a factor tree should be made of the list in the first post, the branches being the means of affecting. Then could use the card usage statistics if necessary.I am slightly unsure as to what you are describing. If you create such a tree I will add it to the OP.
I think the biggest branches would be Instant Removal (IR) and Removal over Time (RoT).
Then, to more appropriately put cards in their respective branch, take percentages of creatures' base stats for IR and RoT.
RoT mainly includes poison.
IR includes damaging spells.
@OT What methods did you use to create your previous theory?
Is this going to be based on the effector - spells/abilities - or effected -hp?effected [hp]
Even though HP is probably going to be the dominant factor here, attack also plays a part (as seen in the 0/10 example stated before).Correct we will get to observing the other effects on resilience after a few more posts like Gl1tch's on hp.
Crimson dragon and horned frog both have the same amount of HP; however, a diamond shield essentially "removes" the frog from the game, whereas the crimson dragon still can do 9 damage per turn. This fits in with the original definition of resilience, since the shield ends the duration of the frog's effects.
ok, part 1 of my spread sheet (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?hl=en&hl=en&key=tNn6j2JpVjqocgYt2z1dIVQ&authkey=CJSt5Hc#gid=0)is finished proving what Gl1tch said.To estimate the value of each hp amount just make an educated guess after setting an arbitrary hp as 1unit
but i would leave the null point at 7-8 because of owlseye, upped oty , upped rage and maybe some poison spells and abilities and paradox.
now how to give a value to each hp amount?
| HP | |
| 0 | Special Case |
| 1 | 9/24|9/24 |
| 2 | 3/8|3/8 |
| 3 | 3/4|1/2 |
| 4 | 1|1 |
| 5 | 4/3|4/3 |
| 6 | 16/9|16/9 |
I've always thought of HP as having a point of "null-neccessity", at around 6 HP. Once a creature reaches 6 HP, the net gain in effectiveness of a card is approximately 0 as the HP increases.Some initial thoughts starting with a refinement of Gl1tch's post (which did a lot of heavy lifting for this thread):
How I came upon this conclusion:
CC can be sorted into tiers of how much damage it does.
The lowest tier is one dmaage, done by poison and fire shield.
Next is tier two, where only drain life, ice shield, and unupped otyugh deal exactly 2 damage. This tier is the MOST IMPORTANT for unupgraded cards. If a card only has 2 HP, it's worth is dramatically less than something with three HP.
Tier three is where firebolt lies. I believe chaos seed deals 3.4 damage on average. This tier is the MOST IMPORTANT for upgraded cards. In the upgraded setting, the difference between 5 and 6 HP is innumerable.
Tier four is where upgraded otyugh and shockwave lie.
Tier five is for lightning bolt and rage potion.
And lastly, we arrive at tier 6. There is no damage spell that does six damage. Save cards like gravity pull and lobotomize, the target might as well have quintessence. Any attempt at controlling it either requires saving up large amounts of quanta, or wasting two forms of CC. In 90% of instances, it would be detrimental for the opponent to use spells to kill the creature. Lobotomization, CC on a stick or reverse time are the better options.
Moving towards the stratosphere, you arrive at the tiers where voodoo doll, armagio, titan, and colossal dragon lie. Marked only occasionally by the amount of quanta needed for a pump spell, these are the pointless areas, where only gravity pull has a use with the increased HP. At 6 HP, adding one more point of HP no longer buffs the creature.
maybeThis is already the case
average turns in field ~ resilence aproach could be better
things like phoenix got low Hp but high resilense.
| HP | Unupped Relative Resilience |
| 1 | .70 |
| 2 | .85 |
| 3 | .95 |
| 4 | 1 |
| 5 | 1.15 |
| 6 | 1.20 |
| 10 | 1.30 |
| 15 | 1.60 |
How does this look?I think the resilense shoul grow more on 6-7 hp as it can survibe much more than 4.
HP Unupped Relative Resilience 1 .70 2 .85 3 .95 4 1 5 1.15 6 1.20 10 1.30 15 1.60
I think the resilense shoul grow more on 6-7 hp as it can survibe much more than 4.The google doc is not public access. aka I can't see it.
a graph resilience- hp would be losely like this https://docs.google.com/drawings/edit?id=1rRUARv0B8laXW87ibLxaO1dqNv4XAvskHrZ9Sl-pQJI lol.
Literally, what affects it. But that's already in the first post.Exactly relative resilience is more important then objective resilience. Hence I set an arbitrary hp (4) as resilience 1 and compared the other hp to the resilience of that hp.
But what's really relevant to resilience is its' comparative worth. You can compare it to (broadly) games, ex. MTG, ETG, etc. Or on a different scale, compare it to current resilience, attack (in some ways the opposite of resilience), costs and more.
But even if everything had zero hp which is (ex.) worth a value of zero, they'd all still not be the same due to the other factors.
I'm not sure if this is relevant, but there's also the scale to consider. For example Yugioh is in the thousands while ETG is in the ones and tens.
The zero as zero value was an example.Yes. What I did was make guesses at
(off topic) I wonder if we can compare resiliences like different currencies...
Anyway, the problem with with setting an arbitrary hp and comparing is that while resilience is relative, it doesn't have the right 'ways' to be compared more 'correctly'.
Another way of saying that is 1/2 plus 2/3. you have to make them the same scale 3/6 + 4/6 to add them, or in this case, compare them
so that should be a big focus
That means an equation is neededThe zero as zero value was an example.Yes. What I did was make guesses at
(off topic) I wonder if we can compare resiliences like different currencies...
Anyway, the problem with with setting an arbitrary hp and comparing is that while resilience is relative, it doesn't have the right 'ways' to be compared more 'correctly'.
Another way of saying that is 1/2 plus 2/3. you have to make them the same scale 3/6 + 4/6 to add them, or in this case, compare them
so that should be a big focus
1hp/4hp=A
2hp/4hp=B
3hp/4hp=C
4hp/4hp=D
5hp/4hp=E
6hp/4hp=F
10hp/4hp=G
15hp/4hp=H
2hp/1hp=B/A
on a side note. I do not expect a lot of addition with this theory. mostly multiplication.
That means an equation is neededI am not sure an equation more than a set of values is needed for this factor (hp).
Maybe to find a comparative value take an ETG card and see how it's affected/affects the normalcy of a different game. The bigger the difference, the bigger the range of values.That means an equation is neededI am not sure an equation more than a set of values is needed for this factor (hp).
After all it is discrete values we are dealing with not a continuous line.
| Creature | Theoretical cost | Actual cost | Notes |
| Abomination | 5 | 5 | |
| Purple Dragon | 10 | 10 | |
| Flesh Spider | 2.68 | 3 | Ignoring web |
| Mummy | 4.47 | 4 | Ignoring the passive |
| Bone Dragon | 10 | 10 | |
| Skeleton | .67 | 1 | Ignoring the passive |
| Graviton Mercenary | 3 | 4 | Discrepancy |
| Colossal Dragon | 8.96 | 10 | New discrepancy |
| Hematite Golem | 4.15 | 4 | |
| Horned Frog | 2.43 | 2 | |
| Cockatrice | 3.58 | 3 | |
| Emerald Dragon | 10 | 10 | |
| Ash Eater | 1.33 | 1 | |
| Crimson Dragon | 10.73 | 10 | |
| Blue Crawler | 2.68 | 3 | |
| Ice Dragon | 9.34 | 10 | |
| Photon | .67 | 0 | |
| Golden Dragon | 11.44 | 12 | |
| Azure Dragon | 9.34 | 10 | |
| Devonian Dragon | 10 | 10 | |
| Black Dragon | 10 | 10 | |
| Phase Spider | 3.24 | 3 | Ignoring Web |
| Creature | Theoretical cost | Actual cost | Notes |
| Micro Abomination | .91 | 1 | |
| Amethyst Dragon | 11.45 | 11 | |
| Flesh Recluse | 4.37 | 3 | Ignoring web; Discrepancy |
| Elite Mummy | 3.47 | 3 | Ignoring the passive |
| Ivory Dragon | 10 | 10 | |
| Skeleton | .62 | 1 | Ignoring the passive |
| Graviton Guard | 2 | 2 | |
| Massive Dragon | 10.79 | 11 | |
| Steel Golem | 5.73 | 4 | Discrepancy |
| Giant Frog | 3.05 | 2 | Discrepancy |
| Elite Cockatrice | 3.77 | 3 | |
| Jade Dragon | 12.17 | 12 | |
| Ruby Dragon | 11.15 | 12 | |
| Abyss Crawler | 5.23 | 4 | Discrepancy |
| Arctic Dragon | 12 | 11 | Discrepancy |
| Light Dragon | 13.18 | 13 | |
| Sky Dragon | 12.91 | 12 | |
| Silurian Dragon | 11.40 | 12 | |
| Black Dragon | 11.45 | 12 | |
| Phase Recluse | 4.67 | 4 | Ignoring Web |
After doing the calculations for the upgraded cards, I found that the resilience formula I suggested overrates high-hp creatures and underrates low-hp creatures. I changed the formula slightly, giving more weight to the base resilience; this mostly fixed the problem.As you said in the other thread HP should be a factor in the Power variable due to catapult and acceleration.
New formula: Resilience = (log5(hp)+2) / 3
All 5 discrepancies can be fixed by accounting upgrade as a 2-quanta cost reduction, as initially suggested by OldTrees. However, I currently do not understand why some creatures should get a 2-quanta bonus from the upgrade, while most of them only get 1.
As you said in the other thread HP should be a factor in the Power variable due to catapult and acceleration.Indeed, I used the Power = Attack (+ HP/50) model I mentionned in the other thread. HP/50 is only added for gravity creatures (for all other creatures it would barely make a difference of .1 or so).
I assume these calculations were under the old Power=attack model.
The 1-2 cost reduction was the old formula. This formula uses a different basis and thus most likely will have a different resulting upgrade factor. As you said before that factor will probably proportional to the original total Cost.
How goes this? Is Part 1 done?No part one is not done yet. Midnar got too busy to return my PMs and I was not able to duplicate his results when I tried to derive it.
I'm fairly new to the metagame, but wouldn't those previously mentioned special cases normalize the values to some extent? Unless the 'freeze', 'delay', 'reverse time', and 'invert attack' effects aren't used very often, I would think that might be the case. -HP effects would be replaced by those effects when facing a higher HP creature in actual gameplay, so in my opinion, resilience would not increase so drastically from 5 to 6 HP. Could resilience against special effects be quantified?You are right that since the only hp difference from 5-6 is against Lightning and Rage Potion that the increase should be minor.
Anyhow, I love this thread, it's an excellent idea.
| HP | Unupped Relative Resilience |
| 1 | .70 |
| 2 | .85 |
| 3 | .95 |
| 4 | 1 |
| 5 | 1.15 |
| 6 | 1.20 |
| 10 | 1.30 |
| 15 | 1.60 |