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Mechanics of Card Cost - Creatures https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10994.msg135364#msg135364
« on: August 10, 2010, 08:57:48 pm »
Mechanics of creature cost

During the creation of any game, balance is a key issue.  One such issue when creating the creatures for any Card Game is the cost / reward ratio.  That is, what you pay for and what you get should be fairly consistent across the board.  Strong creatures aren’t cheep, and weak ones aren’t expensive, as that wouldn’t make sense.  After some research, some trends appeared, and appear to be some basic principles and rules behind why creatures cost what they do.  This formula is not foolproof, as there are some holes in it, but for the most part it holds up.

The first part of this formula is the attack stat of the creature.  As this is the primary offense of the game, it’s the foundation of this formula.  Begin the calculation of the cost of the creature by giving it plus one quanta of cost for every point of attack it has.  This is the end when it comes to most vanilla creatures.  An abomination has five attack, so it costs five entropy quanta.  A Devonian Dragon has ten attack, so it costs ten time quanta.  Skeletons have just one, so they cost one death quanta.  It’s pretty simple so far.

The next part that comes into play is the creature’s health.  If a creature’s health is above five, add one quanta to its cost.  If its health is above seven, add two quanta.  If it’s ten or more, add three.  There are two exceptions to this, Stone Dragon and Hematite Golem, but they are because of a rule that will come later.  For example, an Ice Dragon has nine attack and six HP.  Nine attack gives nine quanta, and six HP adds another one, making the final cost ten.

The main complication of this formula comes in the next section, which is its ability.  Depending on a lot of factors, this can increase or decrease the cost.  The ability can add up to four quanta to the cost, with some qualifications.  Abilities that add one quanta to the cost are Gravity Pull, Infection, Vampire, Stone Form, Lobotomize, Lycanthropy, Evolve, and Phoenix’s rebirth.  Abilities that add two to the cost are Devour, Paradox, Mutate, Poison, Dive, Heal, Immortality and the status effect, Devourer’s quanta drain passive effect, and Freeze.  Hatch adds three quanta to the cost, and growth abilities are also worth three.  A creature that can spawn other creatures adds four.  Lastly, an ability that generates quanta adds one quanta of cost for each quanta generated.  Firefly has one extra quanta of cost, but Rustler adds two.  An ability that requires an element different from the creature’s type reduces the cost by one, as does an ability that sacrifices the creature, and starting with zero HP.  Burrow ends up being a null cost, as it's fairly balanced as is.

The last things, is that some elements give an innate bonus to creatures of their elements.  These usually tie into the main theme of that element.  All fire creatures get one cost-free point of attack.  Life, Light, and Air all get a one quanta cost reduction to their creatures, and Earth gets one cost-free point of HP.  With these calculations, the value of each portion of each card can be found.  Likewise, when creating your own fan made card, keep these guidelines in mind.

Notes:
     
Entropy                 
Maxwell's Demon:   5 = 3 atk +2 (kill)
Abomination:      5 = 5 attack
Purple Dragon:    10 = 10 attack
Lycanthrope:       2 = 1 attack +2 (both stats buffed) -1 (duo ability)
Fallen Elf      4 = 3 attack +2 (Mutate) -1 (duo ability)

Death                 
Bone Dragon      10 = 10 attack
Virus         1 = 1 attack +1 (infection) -1 (sacrifice)
Flesh Spider      3 = 3 attack
Vulture      3 = 0 attack +3 (both stats grow)
Skeleton      1 = 1 attack
Mummy      4 = 5 attack -1 (duo ability)

Gravity                 
Sapphire Charger   5 = 4 attack +1 (momentum)
Armagio      5 = 1 attack +1 (grav pull) +3 (HP > 9)
Colossal Dragon   10 = 7 attack +3 (HP > 9)
Otyugh      4 = 0 attack +2 (kill) +3 (both stats grow)
Graviton Fire Eater   2 = 0 attack +3 (growing attack) -1 (duo ability)
Graviton Mercenary   4 = 3 attack

Earth                 
Antlion      2 = 2 attack
Hematite Golem   4 = 4 attack
Stone Dragon      10 = 8 attack +2 (HP > 7)
Graboid      3 = 2 attack +2 (attack buff) -1 (duo ability)
Shrieker      8 = 8 attack

Life                 
Emerald Dragon   10 = 10 attack +1 (HP > 5) -1 (Life bonus)
Horned Frog      2 = 3 attack -1 (Life bonus)
Rustler         1 = 1 attack +2 (quanta gen.) -1 (Life bonus) -1 (duo ability)
Cockatrice      3 = 4 attack -1 (Life bonus)
Forest Spirit      2 = 1 attack +3 (both stats grow) -1(duo ability) -1 (Life bonus)
Fire                 
Ash Eater      1 = 1 attack
Fire Spirit      2 = 0 attack +2 (growing attack)
Lava Golem      5 = 4 attack +3 (scaling both) -1 (duo ability)
Crimson Dragon   10 = 11 attack
Phoenix      7 = 6 attack +1 (rebirth)

Water                 
Chrysaora      1 = 0 attack +2 (poison) -1 (duo ability)
Blue Crawler      3 = 3 attack
Arctic Squid      3 = 1 attack +2 (freeze)
Ice Dragon      10 = 9 attack +1 (HP > 5)
Toadfish      5 = 5 attack +1 (infection) -1 (duo ability)
Mind Flayer      2 = 2 attack +1 (lobo) -1 (duo ability)

Light                 
Photon         0 = 1 attack -1 (element)
Golden Dragon   12 = 10 attack +3 (HP > 9) -1 (Light Bonus)
Pegasus      4 = 3 attack +2 (dive) -1 (Light Bonus) -1 (duo ability)
Guardian Angel   3 = 1 attack +2 (heal) +1 (HP > 5) -1 (Light Bonus)

Air                 
Dragonfly      1 = 1 attack -1 (Air Bonus)
Wyrm         4 = 3 attack +2 (dive) -1 (Air Bonus)
Azure Dragon      10 = 9 attack +1 (HP > 5) -1 (Air Bonus)
Firefly Queen      7 = 3 attack +4 (Spawns creatures) +2 (HP > 5) -1 (duo ability) -1 (Air Bonus)
Firefly         3 = 3 attack +1 (quanta gen.) -1 (Air Bonus)

Time                 
Deja Vu      1 = 1 attack
Devonian Dragon   10 = 10 attack
Fate Egg      3 = 0 attack +3 (hatch)
Anubis         8 = 5 attack +2 (quint) +2 (HP > 7) -1 (duo ability)
Pharaoh      9 = 3 attack +4 (Spawns creatures) +2 (HP > 7)
Scarab         2 = 2 attack +2 (kill) -1 (variable HP) -1 (duo ability)

Darkness                 
Black Dragon      10 = 10 attack
Devourer      2 = 0 attack +2 (quanta drain)
Parasite      2 = 1 attack +1 (infection)
Minor Vampire   3 = 2 attack +1 (Vampire)
Gargoyle      5 = 5 attack +1 (HP buff) -1 (duo)

Aether                 
Spark         0 = 3 attack -3 (0 HP)
Immortal      6 = 4 attack +2 (Immortal)
Phase Dragon      13 = 8 attack +2 (Immortal) +1 (HP > 5)
Phase Spider      3 = 4 attack

Offline Bloodshadow

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Re: Mechanics of Card Cost - Creatures https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10994.msg135451#msg135451
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2010, 11:25:09 pm »
 :o :o :o

PF, you deserve +karma for this analysis. Very interesting and useful stuff.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

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Re: Mechanics of Card Cost - Creatures https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10994.msg135472#msg135472
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2010, 11:56:35 pm »
:o :o :o

PF, you deserve +karma for this analysis. Very interesting and useful stuff.
Agreed.

This article should probably be one of the main 'foundations' of card design - since card cost is an underestimated but important factor of card balancing, I'd say that you definitely nailed this concept PhantomFox (at least for unupgraded cards :P).

That brings up another question however; how does this card cost apply to permanents and spells? >.>

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Re: Mechanics of Card Cost - Creatures https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10994.msg135543#msg135543
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2010, 02:26:03 am »
That... is less clear cut, and will be my next area of study.

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Re: Mechanics of Card Cost - Creatures https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10994.msg135552#msg135552
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2010, 02:52:23 am »
Nice research and presentation. Although spells/permanents sounds harder because of more variety.

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Re: Mechanics of Card Cost - Creatures https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10994.msg135554#msg135554
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2010, 02:53:49 am »
Commendable work PhantomFox. Hopefully this inspires others to dig deeper into what is the essence of Elements the Game.

+Karma.
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AeonSiege

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Re: Mechanics of Card Cost - Creatures https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10994.msg135617#msg135617
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2010, 05:20:31 am »
Yey this is my first post!!!! Sorry, I had to say that.

Nice analysis. Your explanation is quite good. I made my research too inspired on what you have said and made an equation based on your analysis and added some of my analysis to the equation. And also this equation is only a guideline. Here it is:

Cost = 1*attack + 1(If HP-[Element Bonus if aplicable]> 5) + 1(If HP-[Element Bonus if aplicable] > 7) + 1(If HP-[Element Bonus if aplicable] > 9) - 1(If HP-[Element Bonus if aplicable] < 4) - 2(If HP=0) + Ability Rank - Element Bonus (If applicable) - 1(Duo ability) +1(Cheap Ability Cost) - 1(Additional Ability Cost, like sacrifice) - 1(If ability is conditional) + 1*quanta generation.

This equation is a little complicated, but solves some anomalies in the math made for some creatures. I will try my best to explain. In the case of Otyugh, Devourer, Stone Dragon, Phoenix, Phase Spider, and Phase Dragon, this is how it goes for my analysis:
 
Otyugh     4 = 0 attack + 2 (kill) + 3 (both stats grow) - 1 (Kill and growth are linked(Conditional ability))
Devourer     2 = 0 attack + 1 (quanta drain) + 1 (quanta generation)
Stone Dragon     10 = 8 attack + 2 (HP-1[Earth HP Bonus] > 7)
Phoenix      7 = 7 attack +1 (rebirth) - 1[Fire Attack Bonus]
Phase Spider      3 = 4 attack - 1(HP<4)
Phase Dragon      13 = 8 attack + 8/2(Immaterial) +1 (HP > 5)

I clarify that Immaterial is a passive ability just like momentum, but Immortality is an active ability like lobotomize.
I think that Immaterial is an ability that depends on the amount of attack it is protecting; and that rebirth discard all of the HP analysis on the equation. For each 2 attack in the creature, immaterial adds 1 to the sum. This could be the truth about phase dragon.

Also, I think that all creatures in life and fire have a +1 attack bonus, and all creatures in light, gravity, and earth have a +1 HP bonus. That explains the math done inside the () where the calculation of HP is done.
Ok, im tired and I dont know if I left something out. Please reply me if you want me to explain.

+KARMA FOR PHANTOMFOX

Edit: (HP<3) changed for (HP<4)

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Re: Mechanics of Card Cost - Creatures https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10994.msg135625#msg135625
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2010, 05:39:35 am »
Wow, this is brilliant.

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Re: Mechanics of Card Cost - Creatures https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10994.msg138773#msg138773
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2010, 09:20:59 pm »
Wonderful analysis. +Karma

For the next step, shields and weapons should be done, since it'll probably be easier than all perms/spells.

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Re: Mechanics of Card Cost - Creatures https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10994.msg138796#msg138796
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2010, 09:49:56 pm »
Wondrous! +karma indeed!

maybe upgraded creatures next?

I wonder how badly this could be broken at the edges.

Cost: 0
3: 3 attack
-1: Fire bonus to attack
-1: 2hp
+1: Rebirth
-1: Duo ability
-1: Ability requires sacrifice

Lesser Phoenix
Cost:  0
Element:  :fire
3|2
Ability:  :life: sacrifice and generate a Lesser Phoenix Egg

Edit: I did my math wrong
4-1-1+1-1-1=/=0
3-1-1+1-1-1=0
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Re: Mechanics of Card Cost - Creatures https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10994.msg138842#msg138842
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2010, 11:09:50 pm »
This should be a wiki article *looks at wiki* oh wait, it already is ^.^

Anyways, this is what you did for the gravity trials, right? It's very good, and hopefully it will give some ideas for how to balance card ideas. It's very clear, and informative. This should be done for weapons/shields, and maybe spells too.

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Re: Mechanics of Card Cost - Creatures https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10994.msg146354#msg146354
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2010, 06:28:49 pm »
Nice post.
So abomination costs 5 :entropy for 5 attack, but mummy is cheaper because it has an ability? Hrm.
So if we gave abomination an ability costing non :entropy, it should be 4 :entropy instead of 5?

Cost: 0
4: 4 attack
-1: Fire bonus to attack
-1: 2hp
+1: Rebirth
-1: Duo ability
-1: Ability requires sacrifice
Quite broken. Especially since 4-1-1+1-1-1 =1

The singular form of quanta is quantum (as in mechanics). I don't care if the game has it wrong as well, it's still wrong. =P

 

anything
blarg: