Author

Solaris · « **Reply #72 on:** May 11, 2016, 07:48:12 pm »

Quote from: godisnowonline on May 11, 2016, 07:45:30 pm

I mean i suppose all things considered this is the best course of action. I'm just hoping not to get picked >.< I'm tired of dying early

Somewhat agreed, I don't really like relying 100% on RNG, though. That being said, I'd still like to see the diceroll + proof, now that we know it's okay to do so.

Ginyu · « **Reply #73 on:** May 11, 2016, 08:49:59 pm »

About "proving real RNG":
I remember a topic where dd96 complained about that behaviour, taking a lot of interpretation out of the game. Most mafia sites forbid it because of that reason. While it is allowed by the host here, I agree with rob that it sucks.

However, risking a mafia player to build up a list of five civvies is a huge gamble. If we take the version without proof, we should not allow the plan creater Demagog to make the list (or ignore if he does), because that could be part of a mafia plan.

rob77dp · « **Reply #74 on:** May 11, 2016, 09:06:27 pm »

Quote from: Ginyu on May 11, 2016, 08:49:59 pm

About "proving real RNG":
I remember a topic where dd96 complained about that behaviour, taking a lot of interpretation out of the game. Most mafia sites forbid it because of that reason. While it is allowed by the host here, I agree with rob that it sucks.

However, risking a mafia player to build up a list of five civvies is a huge gamble. If we take the version without proof, we should not allow the plan creater Demagog to make the list (or ignore if he does), because that could be part of a mafia plan.

While I know I'm not mafia I grasp how other's cannot yet know that for sure. However, my list was randomized and would count for you, Ginyu, as "not Demagog making the list" (unless of course one suspects BOTH Dema and I are mafia working tandem -- we are not both mafia because of what I stated above - I'm not mafia). Do I know if Demagog is mafia or not? Nope, I suspect he isn't but we just don't know.

Demagog · « **Reply #75 on:** May 11, 2016, 10:42:24 pm »

My plan is to take a video of rolling the die and post it as a private video on my youtube channel. Any objections to that method? I would say it is the only viable method we should use. Anyone in chat can screenshot or take a video of the rolls as well in order to verify.

rob77dp · « **Reply #76 on:** May 11, 2016, 10:49:40 pm »

I am able to take in-browser videos (webm format -- but can convert if needed) if that helps...?

mathman101 · « **Reply #77 on:** May 11, 2016, 10:52:18 pm »

I like the idea of dema's plan in choosing the 5 random for lynching.

But I have to agree with rob and Ginyu on not wanting to need proof of a random roll for taking away from the guessing mafia trusting idea. It does not matter to me who chooses the numbers, I'm fine with going with the ones rob choose or we can wait for dema to post a random set without proof of randomness.

Just my two cents.

Linkcat · « **Reply #78 on:** May 11, 2016, 10:56:32 pm »

A simple verification by other players in chat is enough. Anybody can check the history for it.

Demagog · « **Reply #79 on:** May 11, 2016, 11:17:28 pm »

Spoiler for Spoiler for rolls in chat:

The rolls mean the 5 people are Ginyu, Calindu, Espithel, Linkcat, godisnowonline.

Up to you guys if you want to use these numbers. Remember, if any of these are mafia, mafia will want a reroll probably, and if any aren't mafia won't want a reroll, so we could use that information later on based on the outcome of what roles each of these people have.

rob77dp · « **Reply #80 on:** May 11, 2016, 11:27:38 pm »

Quote from: Demagog on May 11, 2016, 11:17:28 pm

Spoiler for Spoiler for rolls in chat:
[18:01:53] ‹Demagog› Who wants to be a witness for mafia dice rolls?
[18:02:13] ‹Linkcat› Hi.
[18:02:43] Guest-Wyrm-0bb49 joined.
[18:02:38] • Solaris will witness
[18:02:40] ‹Demagog› guess that's a yes
[18:02:56] ‹Demagog› one sec let me make sure there are actually 22 people playing
[18:03:11] Guest-Wyrm-0bb49 left.
[18:03:27] willng3 left.
[18:03:14] ‹Dm› As I am the most recent mafia overlord
[18:03:18] ‹Demagog› ok so /roll 1d22 should work, right?
[18:03:32] willng3 joined.
[18:03:18] ‹Dm› I will oversee this
[18:03:21] ‹Dm› And I bless your rolls
[18:03:28] ‹Dm› With mafia picked people.
[18:03:44] Dandy joined.
[18:03:35] ‹Demagog› lol thanks
[18:03:46] ‹Demagog› I'll roll until we get 5 different numbers
[18:03:48] ‹Dm› Also
[18:03:50] ‹Dm› If you want five people
[18:03:51] ‹Dm› Just do
[18:03:53] ‹Dm›
(5d22) 12 + 7 + 13 + 5 + 1 = 38
[18:03:56] ‹Demagog› repeats get rerolled, obvious
[18:03:57] ‹Dm› Ooops
[18:03:59] ‹Dm›
(5d22) 10 + 4 + 9 + 19 + 7 = 49
[18:04:01] ‹Demagog› oh ya
[18:04:02] ‹Dm› Oh come on
[18:04:02] ‹AveragePotato› The latest forum post is Re: Happy 7th Birthday, EtG community! from Dandy. Have you posted today?
[18:04:04] ‹Dm› ./roll 5d22
[18:04:16] ‹Dm› Take into account spaces, god damn chat.
[18:04:35] willng3 left.
[18:04:46] willng3 joined.
[18:04:33] ‹Sera›
(3d10) 3 + 10 + 1 = 14
[18:04:38] ‹Demagog›
(5d22) 6 + 11 + 6 + 10 + 13 = 46
[18:04:44] ‹Demagog› hmm
[18:04:45] ‹Dm› Roll again
[18:04:46] ‹Dm› two 6's
[18:04:55] ‹Demagog› k
[18:05:02] ‹Demagog›
(5d22) 1 + 5 + 11 + 1 + 14 = 32
[18:05:02] ‹Linkcat› Damn, RNG really hates me, tried to get me lynched twice.
[18:05:06] ‹Demagog› lol
[18:05:09] ‹Dm› Roll again, two 1's
[18:05:12] ‹Dm› You're sure unlucky
[18:05:15] ‹Demagog›
(5d22) 7 + 17 + 9 + 6 + 3 = 42
[18:05:27] ‹Dm› That's the one. This dice roll is Dm approved
[18:05:32] ‹Demagog› ok there are 5 unique numbers
[18:05:33] ‹Sera› RIP linkcat
[18:05:55] ‹Linkcat› I object to this roll.
[18:05:59] ‹Demagog› He can still fight for us to not use this plan or have someone else roll the numbers
[18:06:02] ‹Dm› Fuck you
[18:06:10] ‹Demagog› lol
[18:06:16] ‹Linkcat› There are two interpretations of repeats getting rerolled, and you could have gone with either one.
[18:06:29] ‹Demagog› how about I go with the original plan
[18:06:34] ‹Demagog› separate rolls
[18:06:39] ‹Solaris› yes
[18:07:07] willng3 left.
[18:07:12] willng3 joined.
[18:07:10] ‹Demagog› ok, Solaris said yes and is not in that list, so that's worth something
[18:07:24] ‹Demagog›
(1d22) 7 = 7
[18:07:26] ‹Demagog›
(1d22) 21 = 21
[18:07:33] ‹Sera› what if both of you are mafia and the roll is simply an unlucky one that hit two mafias, so you both want to reroll
[18:07:38] ‹Sera› let's stay with the roll
[18:08:02] ‹Demagog› lol I'm fine with that too
[18:08:07] ‹Demagog› I have to wait before doing more rolls
[18:08:27] ‹Dm›
(2d22) 20 + 16 = 36
[18:08:29] ‹Dm›
(2d22) 12 + 9 = 21
[18:08:33] ‹Dm› There
[18:08:36] ‹Dm› Pick any of the four
[18:09:04] Guest-Wyrm-0bb49 joined.
[18:09:04] ‹Linkcat› ‹@Sera› You could easily be mafia and see that there's no mafia on the first roll, and mafia in the new roll.
[18:09:05] ‹Solaris› ‹@Dm› nope, gives chance to dick with results
[18:09:34] Guest-Wyrm-0bb49 left.
[18:09:28] ‹Dandy› I hope I'm not bothering anyone, and feel free to ignore me if I am, but I'm trying to find out what "Mafia" is, and can't find a thread that explains it...if someone could clue me in, it would be much appreciated.
[18:09:54] willng3 left.skyironsword joined.
[18:09:38] ‹Linkcat› ‹@Dandy› elementscommunity.org/forum/forum-games/eleme...
[18:09:58] willng3 joined.
[18:09:48] ‹Dandy› Thanks!
[18:10:00] ‹justaburd› chirp
[18:10:28] willng3 left.
[18:10:15] ‹Sera› could be true, but not touching rolls after they're done is the more "statistically moral" way
[18:10:21] ‹Demagog› ok so I'm just going to copy/paste the conversation in the thread so that it's documented, up until this comment
[18:10:36] willng3 joined.
[18:10:38] ‹Linkcat› So you're pausing rolls?
[18:11:09] ‹Dm› Ok
[18:11:12] ‹Dm› So I'm not in mafia
[18:11:13] ‹Demagog› well technically we got 5 people, with that 5d22 roll
[18:11:15] ‹Dm› I'll give my unbiased decision
[18:11:22] ‹Dm› [20:05:15] ‹Demagog› (5d22) 7 + 17 + 9 + 6 + 3 = 42
[18:11:26] ‹Dm› This is the roll that should go through
[18:11:28] ‹Dm› It's got no repeats
[18:11:35] ‹Dm› Repeats are meaningless because that's four people, not five.
[18:11:47] ‹JonathanCrazyJ› " I acknowledge that all mafia discussion must occur in this thread, unless specifically permitted by the host through the Secret Note item"
[18:12:02] ‹Linkcat› My objection stands.
[18:12:08] ‹JonathanCrazyJ› pretty sure this prohibits... well, this entire conversation, and probably the practice of rolling in chat]
[18:12:08] ‹Dm› Don't worry, I'm not in mafia. =P
[18:12:20] ‹Demagog› Root said we have to paste the stuff from chat in the thread and it's ok
[18:12:21] ‹Linkcat› ‹@JonathanCrazyJ› elementscommunity.org/forum/forum-games/eleme...
[18:12:23] ‹Solaris› ‹@JonathanCrazyJ› then root went forward to say that it's OK as long as logs are pasted into the thread
[18:12:34] ‹JonathanCrazyJ› ahh ok, just observing
[18:12:42] ‹Solaris› yup

The rolls mean the 5 people are Ginyu, Calindu, Espithel, Linkcat, godisnowonline.

Up to you guys if you want to use these numbers. Remember, if any of these are mafia, mafia will want a reroll probably, and if any aren't mafia won't want a reroll, so we could use that information later on based on the outcome of what roles each of these people have.

Soooo... you're saying if I want to be seen as what I am (civ) I cannot do anything but accept your rolls?

How do we know you're not mafia (OK with an all-civ list and making statements leading on that it would be scummy for civ to argue it... in such a case other mafia obviously won't argue it)? $:-\$

Linkcat · « **Reply #81 on:** May 11, 2016, 11:37:41 pm »

Quick post to explain why the roll is bad.

Demagog said this:
[18:03:56] ‹Demagog› repeats get rerolled, obvious

He then took Dm's suggestion and rolled all 5 at once:
(5d22) 6 + 11 + 6 + 10 + 13 = 46

I was rolled twice here, and there are two different ways to reroll. The first way, which I assumed would be used, was to just roll a single additional number. The second way, which he did use, was to throw away all 5 rolls and reroll. I was rolled again. The issue here is that he easily could have gone with either of these methods, and it's very possible that he saw that there were mafia in that roll and went with the second method. Of course, this only makes sense if his plan is bad for town, which it is. I'll explain that in another post. It's also a valid point that any further rolls are bad because I caused the first ones to be invalidated. As you can see, there is no way to confirm that any roll was not tainted by mafia.

Sera · « **Reply #82 on:** May 11, 2016, 11:54:37 pm »

Seconded. How we were going to do rerolls was not clearly set at the time of rolling, which left the rolls open to bias. But any further rolls could easily be initiated by mafia if the current roll is unfavorable for them. The only thing we could do is accept the current one, or scrap the whole idea altogether.

If it helps, note that Demagog also agreed to rerolling after Linkcat's complaint before I objected to let the roll stay as it is.

Demagog · « **Reply #83 on:** May 11, 2016, 11:55:33 pm »

Except for the part where DM (who is not playing) and I both agreed that repeats would be rerolled before I made any rolls. We took the first one without any repeats, just as we said we would.

And while I agree that I could have just done 1 die roll to get a 5th number on that roll, that thought did not occur to me, and it wasn't brought up in chat that I noticed. Also, you would have still been one of the people in that list, so I'm not sure why you are complaining.

Personally, I think the rolls should stand, but I'm willing to compromise if the majority feel we should. For instance, five different people can get together in chat and each roll once. Each would post the full chat log, to ensure that we get the whole story (since there are only 4 mafias).

Author

Solaris

Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1232674#msg1232674

Ginyu

Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1232676#msg1232676

rob77dp

Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1232677#msg1232677

Demagog

Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1232686#msg1232686

rob77dp

Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1232687#msg1232687

mathman101

Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1232688#msg1232688

Linkcat

Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1232689#msg1232689

Demagog

Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1232693#msg1232693

rob77dp

Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1232694#msg1232694

Linkcat

Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1232695#msg1232695

Sera

Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1232696#msg1232696

Demagog

Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1232697#msg1232697