Elements the Game Forum - Free Online Fantasy Card Game
Other Topics => Forum Archive => World of Elements => Topic started by: Scaredgirl on October 29, 2011, 04:35:48 pm
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Plan with WoE from the day one has been to follow the MMORPG formula and to let players slowly level up and not lose their characters. I was just thinking about an alternative way of doing things, and we need to decide this now before we can move forward.
OPTION 1 (current plan)
Players get to keep their characters and will start each new WoE with that same character.
Pros:
+ progress is not lost
+ players are more attached to their charaters
Cons:
- leveling will be slow
- the gap between veterans and new players increases all the time, to the point that new players will be destroyed in every single battle
OPTION 2 (alternative plan)
Players have to make a new character for each new WoE.
Pros:
+ we can increase the XP gain dramatically, giving players faster access to higher level skills
+ it's easier to update Character Sheets and other stuff without having to transfer all the old data
Cons:
- characters are deleted after the event
- resetting characters might have some storyline issues
I personally think that both options would work well and I don't have a strong feeling to one way or another. As a player, I would probably like Option 2 more because it lets me access high level skills without months of grinding, and I don't really mind starting a new character.
So yeah.. lets have a poll and see what everyone thinks.
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I think I'd be okay with this as long as the XP gain was made faster each time. But if this isn't going to happen past the first reset then I'd say I'd rather leave the characters as is.
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I would mind having to start a new character alot.
I love statistics and I want to keep my PvP win%, my cards, my quests, everything. Most of all I want to keep my Skills though. Having to start a new character every WoE would become very demotivating.
As I see it, this event stands or falls by the presence of it's active, participating, veteran members. Giving them a character they can finetune, develop and keep through the WoE story is a key part of the entire experience imo.
Let's find another way to prevent new players from getting slaughtered. (like no exp gain/salvage for a player 5+ levels lower then you and maybe even exp loss if you lsoe vs a player 5+ levels lower) Anything but deleting the characters :(
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I would prefer option 2, most likely, the slow pace of getting skills and leveling with the current system is really very slow, and thus, unfun.
I'd like to know what precisely is meant by "New WoE," though. Is it each time we make a new version of beta, each time someone wins, every couple months, or something else entirely?
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I would mind having to start a new character alot.
I love statistics and I want to keep my PvP win%, my cards, my quests, everything. Most of all I want to keep my Skills though. Having to start a new character every WoE would become very demotivating.
As I see it, this event stands or falls by the presence of it's active, participating, veteran members. Giving them a character they can finetune, develop and keep through the WoE story is a key part of the entire experience imo.
Let's find another way to prevent new players from getting slaughtered. (like no exp gain/salvage for a player 5+ levels lower then you and maybe even exp loss if you lsoe vs a player 5+ levels lower) Anything but deleting the characters :(
I would second this. I much prefer keeping my character from game to game, as it is that steady progress toward the "perfect" character that really motivates and interests me. I think the new player's disadvantage should be mitigated in some way though. The existence of copious questing opportunities plus something like Jappert is suggesting to remove rewards for newb stomping, would probably be enough.
As for the speed of progress, once we have something in place to discourage the most powerful players from picking on new players too much, the pace of leveling can be whatever rate the community and SG deems most enjoyable, without affecting the game balance much.
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I also see WoE as a storyline, not as a one-time event. I feel like resetting my character would be like playing an RPG and having you character reset after the first chapter/dungeon/whatever.
There are plenty ways to help new players, even very drastic ones like not being able to charge lower level (-5) players etc.
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I'm with Terroking. The idea of a WoE that is a long, slow affair with a continuous storyline has a vague appeal, but honestly, I'm a tinkerer. I'd rather play 3 different builds in a year (and have to start over 3 times to do so) than play 1 build during that same year, particularly if that build never reached the same power level as the three different builds.
Also, starting over from time to time benefits the new people. Veterans have enough uberity on these boards; the last thing we want is one more arena in which the Old Boy's Club runs things and the newbies are forever struggling to catch up.
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I love getting the perfect character.
But I /hate/ games that make you play catch up. I've played games where if you didn't start the first day or two, you'll never be able to be the top player.
Either extreme restrictions on what carried over players can do to new ones or new each game. Possibly people who played the previous one get a slight bonus for each previous one they played could be added too.
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I think I'd be okay with this as long as the XP gain was made faster each time. But if this isn't going to happen past the first reset then I'd say I'd rather leave the characters as is.
The progress would be the same in each new event. Idea would be to run WoE for roughly 100 Days (3-4 months in real life), and it would end shortly after most successful players reach max level.
I would mind having to start a new character alot.
I love statistics and I want to keep my PvP win%, my cards, my quests, everything. Most of all I want to keep my Skills though. Having to start a new character every WoE would become very demotivating.
As I see it, this event stands or falls by the presence of it's active, participating, veteran members. Giving them a character they can finetune, develop and keep through the WoE story is a key part of the entire experience imo.
Let's find another way to prevent new players from getting slaughtered. (like no exp gain/salvage for a player 5+ levels lower then you and maybe even exp loss if you lsoe vs a player 5+ levels lower) Anything but deleting the characters :(
If we had XP loss when you attack lower level players, that would lead to silly situations where one half the players would be high level veterans, and the second half would be "untouchable" newbies.
I would prefer option 2, most likely, the slow pace of getting skills and leveling with the current system is really very slow, and thus, unfun.
I'd like to know what precisely is meant by "New WoE," though. Is it each time we make a new version of beta, each time someone wins, every couple months, or something else entirely?
Like I said there earlier, idea would be that one WoE lasts roughly 100 Days, which translates to 3-4 months. When the event ends, characters would be reset, but the story would continue from where it ended. Thematically, this could mean that all the players die of old age or get someone wiped out of existence, and the next generation would continue the battle.
I much prefer keeping my character from game to game, as it is that steady progress toward the "perfect" character that really motivates and interests me. I think the new player's disadvantage should be mitigated in some way though. The existence of copious questing opportunities plus something like Jappert is suggesting to remove rewards for newb stomping, would probably be enough.
As for the speed of progress, once we have something in place to discourage the most powerful players from picking on new players too much, the pace of leveling can be whatever rate the community and SG deems most enjoyable, without affecting the game balance much.
Don't you see it as a problem if the gap between new players and veterans becomes too big?
I'm with Terroking. The idea of a WoE that is a long, slow affair with a continuous storyline has a vague appeal, but honestly, I'm a tinkerer. I'd rather play 3 different builds in a year (and have to start over 3 times to do so) than play 1 build during that same year, particularly if that build never reached the same power level as the three different builds.
Also, starting over from time to time benefits the new people. Veterans have enough uberity on these boards; the last thing we want is one more arena in which the Old Boy's Club runs things and the newbies are forever struggling to catch up.
Yep. I don't see it as that much different from playing an MMO and starting a new character once your main character hits max level. Sure you still have that main character and probably do some endgame stuff with it, but it's not like starting over is somehow boring and useless. I personally like trying out different builds and characters, and doing a fresh start in WoE would probably interest me.
I love getting the perfect character.
But I /hate/ games that make you play catch up. I've played games where if you didn't start the first day or two, you'll never be able to be the top player.
Either extreme restrictions on what carried over players can do to new ones or new each game. Possibly people who played the previous one get a slight bonus for each previous one they played could be added too.
Yep, this is probably the main argument for Option 2, and it's something I overlooked when I first started to build WoE.
The more I think about it, the more I like option 2. I was wondering if there was some kind of middle-ground for the two options..
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Disclaimer: I am not a WoE player and thus do not understand all the details. However this alternative might be worth considering.
Option 3 (alternate plan)
Players get to keep their characters but will start each new WoE with some fraction of progress lost.
Pros:
+ some progress is not lost
+ players are moderately more attached to their characters
+ the gap between veterans and new players would be more logrithmic than linear
Cons:
- some progress is lost
- the gap between veterans and new players increases all the time, but would be slower than if all progress was maintained
- higher level players would be hit harder
Example with 50% level retention:
A 12th level (133xp) expert, 6th level (31xp) veteran and a New player (0xp) start as 6th level (31xp), 3rd level (7xp) and 1st level (0xp).
A variant that is less severe on high level players would be a constant level loss instead of a percentage level loss.
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I'm for building a new char every new game.
For people hating to lose all their progress, I'd have a simple solution: give a reward for those that manage to get to level 21. A forum award "The 21 Club of WoE#xy" would be awesome.
It's should also be much more fun for veterans to start anew, giving them the chance to try different builds or even different elements. Being stuck with your char doesn't sound too apealing to me. Saving the overall stats for all players should be done though.
Also, I don't thing it'd be a good idea giving someone an advantage in the beginning of the game. Newbies wouldn't stand a chance against veterans which have already a few levels. It should IMO be enough of an advantage for the veterans that they already know the game and won't sit around the first 3 days figuring out how to move around.
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Keeping cards and levels seems like it would be pretty tough on newbies, so I'd prefer Option 2. However, I think it would be fair to have some sort of progression that carries over. For example, Legacy skills that you do not get by spending skill points, but by completing achievements. These would have to be pretty hard to achieve though. For example,
Achievement: Hoarder - Fill every slot in your bank
Gives Skill: Legendary Greed - For every town your element has control of, gain 5 electrum per day.
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Maybe allow people to keep their characters OR start a new one. Let them choose. This would need some tweaking and thinking because new characters may need some kind of bonus (legacy?) and kept characters may need some kind of penalty (aging penalty?) to balance it out, but I think that it could work.
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Maybe allow people to keep their characters OR start a new one. Let them choose. This would need some tweaking and thinking because new characters may need some kind of bonus (legacy?) and kept characters may need some kind of penalty (aging penalty?) to balance it out, but I think that it could work.
I'm pretty sure that if Option 1 is picked we'll still be able to use the 'reset character' button if we want to start new characters.
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Well, achevement-style 'perks' sound like a good way to reward veterns, and would ensure the power gap can't go beyond a certain limit. That said, just figuring out how to play WOE and what skills are useful will be tricky, so it's going to be nice to have resets, so if you make a character with a horrendous build, it won't mess you up for all eternity.
Something else I thought of was having a certain amount of WOE games you could go for before resetting, but being able to do so earlier. Like, 3 rounds is the max, but you don't have to wait if you want to change up.
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I think we can all agree that from the player's perspective the optimal system would allow a choice between either keeping their current character (which he/she still enjoys playing or hasn't finished leveling), OR start a new character to try new skills or teams. The difficulty in such a system mostly lies with new players feeling perpetually behind.
The reason I liked the "no xp for too low level characters" approach (or a similar system), is that it would still allow new players to go about their business questing and gaining levels without being trounced by high level players. while the older players would be ahead, a maximum level cap means that if the new player is willing to put in the same time as them, they will eventually catch up and be just as powerful. perhaps by then the older player will have reset their character to try out something new. either way I don't see what would be wrong with such a system.
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I haven't read the whole post since its too late and its too long, but here are my two cents:
-Restarting your character over and over again is tiring, but so is joining a game where a few bunch have all the power and you will never catch up.
-Speeding up the xp gain may allow some more dinamic gameplay
About the storyline issues, i don't think it matters that much. I mean, Ash always gets to be the champion of an entire region only to get his ass kicked on the first gym of the next one :P
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There could be a rewards that pile up when you get more games under your belt.
More exp per battle, maybe extra quests, more starting gold, etc.
Something that lets you get to the top quicker than others, but doesn't disadvantage new people so much.
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I've been thinking about this some more..
The reason why MMO's get away with having veterans and new players is that they have different areas for different level players. There's the newbie area, the endgame area, and everything in between. In WoE we don't really have that luxury, so things are a bit more complex.
First of all, I think we should have a system where you gain 0 XP and 0 salvage if the player you are attacking is 7+ levels below you. This means that a level 7 character could attack level 1 character and get a bit of XP and cards, but level 8 character would get nothing. That should discourage high level players from ganking newbies. We could also give them some kind of small rep penalty for attacking weaker players. Then again this system would become a problem when defending a City or a Town.
Option 2 sounds better and better to me. If we talk about fairness, it's much better to have a fresh start every now and then. Having those level 24 veterans running around the map, owning everyone (or not being able to attack anyone), would not be that much fun. As a new player, I wouldn't be very motivated to join an event that already has tons of veterans with tons of skills and cards.
I've been trying to copy MMO formula as much as possible but in this particular case, resetting characters could make the event better.
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i think starting from scratch is the best way to go.. some people were able to accumulate way more than others during beta. i didnt fight a single person even when i tried charging someone.. all i did was gain some :electrum for darkness and steal some hexes. starting from 0 everything would give everyone a fresh even playing field.
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I voted don't care but after reading I do care,
How about for this next re-launch, we can reset becuase nothing too dramatic has happened too far, but for future WoEs how about you lose a certain % of your progress, that way those who have played longer still have some advantage, but not too much advantage.
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I've been thinking about this some more..
The reason why MMO's get away with having veterans and new players is that they have different areas for different level players. There's the newbie area, the endgame area, and everything in between. In WoE we don't really have that luxury, so things are a bit more complex. Agreed.
First of all, I think we should have a system where you gain 0 XP and 0 salvage if the player you are attacking is 7+ levels below you. This means that a level 7 character could attack level 1 character and get a bit of XP and cards, but level 8 character would get nothing. That should discourage high level players from ganking newbies. Yes. something like that sounds good. :) We could also give them some kind of small rep penalty for attacking weaker players. Then again this system would become a problem when defending a City or a Town. The rep penalty seems unnecessary. Attacking another player takes time and involves risk, even if they're much lower level. Simply removing the incentives should be enough I'm guessing.
Option 2 sounds better and better to me. If we talk about fairness, it's much better to have a fresh start every now and then. Having those level 24 veterans running around the map, owning everyone (or not being able to attack anyone), would not be that much fun. As a new player, I wouldn't be very motivated to join an event that already has tons of veterans with tons of skills and cards. Why not? New people join WoW all the time. There is nothing stopping a new player from catching up and becoming just as powerful as the player who's been playing for months. Those players won't be attacking you most likely, so you can just do quests and attack others closer to your level, until soon enough you'll get to enjoy your own powerful and successful character.
I've been trying to copy MMO formula as much as possible but in this particular case, resetting characters could make the event better.
In a game like WoE, the whole focus and goal rotates around building and enjoying an awesome, fun character. Getting to actually use and play with your character is the reward for all your months of work spent building it. I don't think we should make any changes that diminish that reward. Optimally I think that would mean resetting is always optional. If we decide to go ahead and build in a forced reset, we should at least be sure that the game is long enough and the leveling is fast enough that both hardcore and casual players will have the opportunity to play as a high level character for quite some time before they are forced to start all over.
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The actual 'Elements the Game' already has very slow grinding and quite a lot of gaps between veterans and newbies (not that it really matters).
I think it would be nice to give the newbies a chance to enjoy the game without stressing about grinding for hours first. I do understand that WoE is a different type of game, but I don't think the current method works for non-veterans (and possibly WoE could turn into a dead game for 50- people.)
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Keeping characters would really discourage new players since they will start at a huge disadvantage, and no matter how much you try to discourage it the leveled up characters will just feast of them for free income and salvage. WoE would lose alot of it's appeal if you have a few supremely powerful characters just rolling over everyone else. At least most MMOs have "no PvP" servers or areas where players can safely level to try and at least be competitive. Trying to implement something similar in WoE would be very tricky to say the least, and making characters immune to attacks until X level is very abusable so that teams could send noobies into dangerous areas to do things for them safely.
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Re: the idea of a -Rep penalty for attacking lower-level people: it's unnecessary. Wasting your time fighting for 0xp is just as bad as sitting in Spirit World, only you risk actually going to Spirit World for doing so.
Also, I think the 'lower level' limit shouldn't be a cutoff, but a diminishing return. As in, if you fight someone within 3 levels of you, it's considered 'even', but if you fight someone 4 levels lower, you get -1 discard/salvage; 5 levels lower, it's -2 discard/salvage, and so on. Needless to say, if you win against someone 4 levels higher, you get +1 discard/salvage, and so on. That way, there's a bit of a larger range of attack (which is a good thing), and you make getting attacked by a higher-level player into an opportunity for the victim as well.
In terms of resetting characters, I'm liking the idea of a few non-elementally-aligned "Elite" skill trees. You gain 1 Elite skill for reaching Character Level 31 (or whatever), and Elite skills carry over between characters. They don't even have to be all that unique or special; something like "You may always use 2 extra upgraded cards in a fight." or "You gain access to a single Mark of your choice." is just fine. The point isn't that Elite skills are appropriate for CL31, it's that they're small boosts for characters of any level but aren't overpowering at CL1.
I'd create say, 3 trees just to give Elite players the illusion of choice, but make all of the bonuses small ones. The satisfaction of being able to carry something over and call yourself Elite is the real prize. :)
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In terms of resetting characters, I'm liking the idea of a few non-elementally-aligned "Elite" skill trees. You gain 1 Elite skill for reaching Character Level 31 (or whatever), and Elite skills carry over between characters. They don't even have to be all that unique or special; something like "You may always use 2 extra upgraded cards in a fight." or "You gain access to a single Mark of your choice." is just fine. The point isn't that Elite skills are appropriate for CL31, it's that they're small boosts for characters of any level but aren't overpowering at CL1.
I'd create say, 3 trees just to give Elite players the illusion of choice, but make all of the bonuses small ones. The satisfaction of being able to carry something over and call yourself Elite is the real prize. :)
Amen! I really like this idea.
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Re: the idea of a -Rep penalty for attacking lower-level people: it's unnecessary. Wasting your time fighting for 0xp is just as bad as sitting in Spirit World, only you risk actually going to Spirit World for doing so.
Also, I think the 'lower level' limit shouldn't be a cutoff, but a diminishing return. As in, if you fight someone within 3 levels of you, it's considered 'even', but if you fight someone 4 levels lower, you get -1 discard/salvage; 5 levels lower, it's -2 discard/salvage, and so on. Needless to say, if you win against someone 4 levels higher, you get +1 discard/salvage, and so on. That way, there's a bit of a larger range of attack (which is a good thing), and you make getting attacked by a higher-level player into an opportunity for the victim as well.
In terms of resetting characters, I'm liking the idea of a few non-elementally-aligned "Elite" skill trees. You gain 1 Elite skill for reaching Character Level 31 (or whatever), and Elite skills carry over between characters. They don't even have to be all that unique or special; something like "You may always use 2 extra upgraded cards in a fight." or "You gain access to a single Mark of your choice." is just fine. The point isn't that Elite skills are appropriate for CL31, it's that they're small boosts for characters of any level but aren't overpowering at CL1.
I'd create say, 3 trees just to give Elite players the illusion of choice, but make all of the bonuses small ones. The satisfaction of being able to carry something over and call yourself Elite is the real prize. :)
Yes, that is one option, but I feel that giving a gameplay bonus, even a tiny one, is unfair to other participants. It's like letting War veterans use one extra upped card compared to those who join War the first time. Even if the advantage is small, it is still and advantage, which is bad on principle imo.
I think that better bonus would be a cosmetic one like:
- forum icon
- special title for your character
- quest where your previous character is the lead character
etc.
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Keeping characters would really discourage new players since they will start at a huge disadvantage, and no matter how much you try to discourage it the leveled up characters will just feast on them for free income and salvage.
Unless we take away their motivation to do so, by decreasing xp/salvage/etc for defeating lower level characters.
WoE would lose alot of it's appeal if you have a few supremely powerful characters just rolling over everyone else.
Keep in mind that WoE is not meant to be only a pvp event. While they weren't a big part of Beta, quests are actually going to be one of the main focuses for characters. Also, the battles are still fought in EtG, so it is always possible to out-think your opponent and bring a counter-deck despite their level-based advantages. And if we adopted a dynamic reward system like Essence suggests, the lower level character would be gaining increased rewards to compensate for the extra difficulty.
At least most MMOs have "no PvP" servers or areas where players can safely level to try and at least be competitive. Trying to implement something similar in WoE would be very tricky to say the least, and making characters immune to attacks until X level is very abusable so that teams could send noobies into dangerous areas to do things for them safely. Agreed, outright immunity would be a bad idea.
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I haven't been in elements beta, so I don't understand CL31 or CL1 or trees, but the second idea suggested seems really good to give the veterans something special of their proof of godliness, but also not give them the greatest advantages.
For the first idea suggested, as I said, I don't understand how this CL thingie works, but seems like it could be abused to get less cards per match but more cards by the end of the day.
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What about a forum icon for the MvP of each WoE? Maybe even a small reward code, like only electrum.
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What about a forum icon for the MvP of each WoE? Maybe even a small reward code, like only electrum.
Sounds rather limited, as only one or so players can receive it.
I don't think this is enough of a reward to the veterans who played WoE to play again next season and do the same things over and over again without changes.
Additionally, I don't think many of the veterans here really care about 1k more electrum or so anymore :P
PS> ??? at people who responded 'I don't care'
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I think the IDC responses are for peeps who don't mind the gap or the constant remaking.
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Keeping characters would really discourage new players since they will start at a huge disadvantage, and no matter how much you try to discourage it the leveled up characters will just feast on them for free income and salvage.
Unless we take away their motivation to do so, by decreasing xp/salvage/etc for defeating lower level characters.
WoE would lose alot of it's appeal if you have a few supremely powerful characters just rolling over everyone else.
Keep in mind that WoE is not meant to be only a pvp event. While they weren't a big part of Beta, quests are actually going to be one of the main focuses for characters. Also, the battles are still fought in EtG, so it is always possible to out-think your opponent and bring a counter-deck despite their level-based advantages. And if we adopted a dynamic reward system like Essence suggests, the lower level character would be gaining increased rewards to compensate for the extra difficulty.
At least most MMOs have "no PvP" servers or areas where players can safely level to try and at least be competitive. Trying to implement something similar in WoE would be very tricky to say the least, and making characters immune to attacks until X level is very abusable so that teams could send noobies into dangerous areas to do things for them safely. Agreed, outright immunity would be a bad idea.
I just don't see the need to retain characters indefinitely. Each WoE launch is like an RPG "campaign" where you grow and develop your characters. Once the campaign ends they are retired and a new one begins with new characters and new stories. That's the nature of most well-balanced RPGs. Even the very best MMOs can't prevent the "haves" and "have nots" from developing when you try to keep characters indefinitely. Plus you run into all sorts of situations you need to start making special rules for. For example, Team Entropy has 10 players returning on a 12 player team, all with a level of 12 let's say. Team Fire has a team entirely composed of level 1 players. Team Entropy then decides to go and capture the fire capitol quickly and there really isn't anything Fire can do to stop it since Entropy has a large base of cards for deck flexibility, including many rares, weapons, and shields. No matter how much you try to prevent it Team Fire will always be playing catchup and the only way to protect them is to create special rules to prevent teams from attacking them for X turns or something like that.
Possible solution: Every WoE campaign starts fresh, but old characters are archived. Maybe like tournies now have every 4th one as upped we can have every 4th (or whatever number) WoE campaign as a "veteran" campaign where only characters of a certain level can join. This allows players to play those powerful old characters on occasion but in a setting where they playing field is still balanced and doesn't require all sorts of special rules and/or exceptions to deal with the imbalancing issues.
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Possible solution: Every WoE campaign starts fresh, but old characters are archived. Maybe like tournies now have every 4th one as upped we can have every 4th (or whatever number) WoE campaign as a "veteran" campaign where only characters of a certain level can join. This allows players to play those powerful old characters on occasion but in a setting where they playing field is still balanced and doesn't require all sorts of special rules and/or exceptions to deal with the imbalancing issues.
Very cool outside-the-box suggestion.
Using that same basic idea, we could have a certain storyline quest for level 24 players, and those who finished the quest, would become Ascendants. Those characters could then start the next WoE as Gods, with their own smaller map and quests. What the Ascendants do, would also affect the regular world.
Players who would have an Ascendant character, could start WoE with a new regular character as well, so they would be playing two characters. And to make the workload less demanding, Ascendants could perform actions less frequently or something.
And finally, we could have Ascendants fight for the title of God, which would be the final step. A player whose character was God, could affect the mortal world in many ways, like changing the terrain, sending armies of NPC's to do damage, things like that. It would basically be a combination of Organizer and player.
Just an idea.
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That Acendant and God thing sounds like a great way to handle players who really get into the event. The casual players run around fighting smaller battles, while the old-tiemers are literally False Gods, if not THE GOD.
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I like the Ascendant Characters idea. It's a great way to make players feel like their beloved characters they worked so hard on are still around. It sounds like a good bit of work of course, and I think we should still be sure that each chapter lasts long enough that a player can play as a high level character in the "normal" world for a while, but it seems like a fun solution.
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I think after one faction wins charachters should get reset. The reason being is after one faction wins the game is pretty much over. And so we would restart. O think you should be able to secure your factions though. I prefer option 2 forth above reason and it let's new Players get to the skills that they want to use faster which is nice.
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Post here as to fill this later. Also, this deserves a bump.