WoE Alpha - General Feedback

[Kuroaitou]

Ok, since no one else posted about this, I shall. Last night, we were braining about WoE skills on chat. Here are the ideas I remember and like:

- Make the Tier1 skills more accessible. Put the Mark skills in place of the current Bane skills, and give the Bane skills to players automatically at the start of the game, as a racial bonus. Water elementals, for example, hate and despise Fire elementals since their birth, so all of them get Bane of Fire at the beginning of their lives. UW players could either get something like 'Anger', which is +1 XP to any win (Notorious would have to be replaced), or could choose a Bane skill from any element.

The problem with this is that the Marks basically dictate what your player can do and what faction they're a part of. In other words, if you put the Marks as Tier 1 instead of it being automatic, the player won't have a specific mark to play in their battles against someone. Marks being 'Tier 0' solves the issue thematically (what type of elemental are you?) and mechanically (what marks the player can use, since if you make it Tier 1, players get even LESS access to choosing other marks than their own to fight against other players.

In regards to your other comments, those can be debatable as well, but they're not game-breaking in my opinion. But the mark NEEDS to be Tier 0 for you to be an elemental of a certain faction, or else the battling system becomes completely broken. ^^;

[YoungSot]

Ok, since no one else posted about this, I shall. Last night, we were braining about WoE skills on chat. Here are the ideas I remember and like:

- Make the Tier1 skills more accessible. Put the Mark skills in place of the current Bane skills, and give the Bane skills to players automatically at the start of the game, as a racial bonus. Water elementals, for example, hate and despise Fire elementals since their birth, so all of them get Bane of Fire at the beginning of their lives. UW players could either get something like 'Anger', which is +1 XP to any win (Notorious would have to be replaced), or could choose a Bane skill from any element.

The problem with this is that the Marks basically dictate what your player can do and what faction they're a part of. In other words, if you put the Marks as Tier 1 instead of it being automatic, the player won't have a specific mark to play in their battles against someone. Marks being 'Tier 0' solves the issue thematically (what type of elemental are you?) and mechanically (what marks the player can use, since if you make it Tier 1, players get even LESS access to choosing other marks than their own to fight against other players.

In regards to your other comments, those can be debatable as well, but they're not game-breaking in my opinion. But the mark NEEDS to be Tier 0 for you to be an elemental of a certain faction, or else the battling system becomes completely broken. ^^;

I don't understand how the battling system becomes broken. presumably you'd still start with the mark skill of you starting element, and then purchase other mark skills to open up other marks. If I understand, there wouldn't be any tier 0, so the tier 1 marks wouldn't be any more or less accessible than they are now.

[Shantu]

Yes, there would be no Tier 0.
Players would still have to choose the Mark as their first skill, it would simply be relocated. Right now, the central placement of the Bane skills makes them so that you have to take them if you want any of the better skills. It also makes little sense that if I am, let's say, a Gravity elemental, and I want Nihilism from Entropy, I have to take Bane of Gravity to gain access to that skill.
Bane skills would take no skill points from you, since you are born with them.

[Korugar]

Ok, since no one else posted about this, I shall. Last night, we were braining about WoE skills on chat. Here are the ideas I remember and like:

- Make the Tier1 skills more accessible. Put the Mark skills in place of the current Bane skills, and give the Bane skills to players automatically at the start of the game, as a racial bonus. Water elementals, for example, hate and despise Fire elementals since their birth, so all of them get Bane of Fire at the beginning of their lives. UW players could either get something like 'Anger', which is +1 XP to any win (Notorious would have to be replaced), or could choose a Bane skill from any element.

As the one who initially suggested that mark skills be tier 0, I'd have to say I don't like this. The reason behind my suggestion is that you have to learn some basic abilities from an element, before being able to do any of the specialties. My only thought is that perhaps UW should be immune to this, as rainbow skills fit them better.

EDIT: Just read your last comment, and realized what you mean....I still don't like it though, as it makes sense that taking a lot of skills from one element would make you the natural enemy of their opposite.

- Get rid of Crafting skills in the skill tree. Currently, they might be too restricted to one element (even if they are at Tier1). Removing them would give more space for more interesting skills. Instead of learning them at level-ups, players could learn it by doing quests in the capitals of the relevant elements (and occasionally at other places), which would go like this: You pay a fee for the master to teach you. He gives you various quests (not too many and none of them too long, so as not to penalize crafters too much) to prove your worth, and when you are done, you must craft your first weapon (which would obviously be of the element you are). As a reward, you would get the crafting skill you wanted, perhaps some crafting material and some XP for your troubles.
I believe this would be a nice way to free up places in the skill tree for more interesting stuff, keep rare cards a bit rarer in the beginning, and would also make it more interesting to learn the skill.

Definitely do not like. First of all, that requires that you come up with replacement skills, something that you may or may not have thought about(it's harder than it sounds, IMO). Second, and more importantly, the crafting skills all fit into the skill trees of their respective elements, thematically and for game-play. And, if anyone just can't stand the idea of needing to rely on another element for this stuff, just get the skill yourself.

- UW revenue: Give all of them a basic revenue of about 30 (whatever number fits), and give the (neutralizing) player about 30 whenever they neutralize a hex (they raid the hex, stealing all valuables then burn it to the ground, etc.). I see two advantages of this: First, they will have to get in conflicts if they want money (assuming conflict = good). Second, it shows the lack of unity in UW, as only the player who raids the hex gets the electrum.

This, I'm all for. UW has a hard enough time with monetary stuff as it is, so they need something like this.

[~Napalm]

Shantu and had a lengthy conversation in chat about his first 2 points, so I feel the need to support them

- Marks being Tier 0 means you have to "waste" 1 Skill point to unlock a skill tree, then level up again to actually get a skill. I am very much against this. I would prefer that the Tier 1 skills are more accessible. I can see where you're coming from thematically with the "Before you can get to the specifics of an element, you have to know the basics," I just cannot agree with forcing someone to take a mark they may not want to unlock a skill they do want. While marks are indeed useful, IMO, they should not be REQUIRED to open up an entire skill tree. Perhaps instead of a Tier 0, or even a Tier 1 skill, they could be on off hand skill that is needed to unlock Tier 2 skills? This would even allow for people to learn the "basics" of an elemental tree without learning the mark, yet still allow them to learn the mark even if they wanted nothing else. And then after the "basics," they can take the step to higher skills. Each elemental would still start with their respective Element. Things like Pendulums and Weapons would be more accessible to all users this way, rather than a select few.

End result: Tier 1 skills are more accessible, Marks are required for more advanced skills, No effect at all on the starting Skill tree. (This system would function the exact same way for the starting skill tree of an Elemental, just make skills of other trees more accessable.)

-I suppose I should clarify how the whole crafting discussion even came up. I am currently in Alpha as a Fire Elemental (obviously...). I was investigating the Weaponsmith skill when I found that in order to use it with any reliability, I must first use 1 skill point on the skill itself, then 1 skill point on the Mark of Water, and then finally 1 skill point on Alchemy. Only after this will I actually be able to create weapons. (This is also what prompted the making tier 1 skills more accessible discussion...) The only way around spending this many skill points is to make deals and trade with Water Elements, which, if it isn't already, should not be allowed without some sort of "Smuggling" Skill as Fire and Water are inherently at war.

So I basically just started thinking of ideas to make things more accessible to all the players, yet still require quite a bit of a time investment to attain. The first was Shantu's first point, Marks not being Tier 0. The second was that Crafting be quests. Instead of travelling around battling and leveling up, and using your level up points to get the crafting skills, you'd would be required to travel around on Quests, performing different tasks, the end result being access to the skill. I really like this option as it gives an alternative path to the game rather than just kill or be killed. You could become a merchant yourself and travel the world trading, without hardly leveling up if you so desired. The whole thing about needing to fix the skill trees is, IMO, a pretty invalid argument. Anyone can tell you that they are still quite rough around the edges and need to have the kinks worked out anyway. While I'm sure it's difficult to set up skill trees that are balanced, it can be done. That is what all this testing is for, amiright?

[Kael Hate]

From those who were part of the development of the original skill trees.
It would be remembered that the trees were created that way to make skills less accessable deliberately.
It was also intended that skills from your opposite element be totally off limits only Underworld could choose skills from opposite trees.

I didn't like any of that and had built a friendlier more open skill structure but it wasn't accepted.

[~Napalm]

Well I guess at this point, I just want the Weaponsmith Skill fixed. Merely taking the Alchemy cards out of the requirements would work fine, even if you threw another card in there. Otherwise Weaponsmith is a dead skill. I do like Crafting being quests though.

[ddevans96]

I agree with taking the alchemy cards out of the requirements for weapons - it means you need at least level 4 before you're able to get any weapons, which can be a long time unless you intend on taking the risks ofn lots of travel for quests and fighting to gain XP.

[Korugar]

- Marks being Tier 0 means you have to "waste" 1 Skill point to unlock a skill tree, then level up again to actually get a skill. I am very much against this. I would prefer that the Tier 1 skills are more accessible. I can see where you're coming from thematically with the "Before you can get to the specifics of an element, you have to know the basics," I just cannot agree with forcing someone to take a mark they may not want to unlock a skill they do want. While marks are indeed useful, IMO, they should not be REQUIRED to open up an entire skill tree....

Hmm...

Yes, there would be no Tier 0.
Players would still have to choose the Mark as their first skill, it would simply be relocated....

You're saying two different things...

[Shantu]

What I meant was: if it is your very first skill, you have to take the mark of your element. If it is not, you can take any Tier1 skill from any element, no need for the mark first, if you don't need it.

[Scaredgirl]

I suppose I should clarify how the whole crafting discussion even came up. I am currently in Alpha as a Fire Elemental (obviously...). I was investigating the Weaponsmith skill when I found that in order to use it with any reliability, I must first use 1 skill point on the skill itself, then 1 skill point on the Mark of Water, and then finally 1 skill point on Alchemy. Only after this will I actually be able to create weapons. (This is also what prompted the making tier 1 skills more accessible discussion...) The only way around spending this many skill points is to make deals and trade with Water Elements, which, if it isn't already, should not be allowed without some sort of "Smuggling" Skill as Fire and Water are inherently at war.

There will be plenty of ways to obtain Alchemy cards.

Weapons cards are the most valuable crafted cards, which is why it takes some extra effort to craft them.

Related to this.. When posting feedback, it's a good idea not to assume that prices, card availability, or round revenue will stay the same after alpha. At this point, skills should noly be balanced with other skills, not that much with outside factors. If you are thinking too much of things like current alpha round revenue (which is a random number), you will only be wasting your time.

Many players have posted feedback that looks something along the lines of this: Skill X is overpowered because price of Z is so low, therefore skill X needs a nerf.
In a situation like that, price of Z makes little difference because it will change. What we should be concentrating on this the relative power of skill X when compared to other similar skills.

[TStar]

The only way around spending this many skill points is to make deals and trade with Water Elements, which, if it isn't already, should not be allowed without some sort of "Smuggling" Skill as Fire and Water are inherently at war.

Smuggling is actually part of the UW skill tree (Tier 3).  The lower half of the UW tree is also built around trading/smuggling.  My impression was that the two main UW income avenues were either going with lots of offensive/fighting skills and winning in battle, or going with trading/smuggling skill and earning income by trafficing in card availability.  The current Alpha rules have made it pretty impossible to explore the feasibility of the latter income route but theoretically UW players with the trading/smuggling skills would be able to act as the go-between for warring factions to earn extra income through valuable rare or restricted cards, which would create the "black market" effect of keeping rare cards and valuable since they will be expensive to make and even more expensive to buy from a crafter.

The rest I don't like.  I see no thematic reason why Tier 1 skills should be easily accessible to everyone.  Players have the choice of either focusing their skills into their own tree to become more powerful but more restricted, or spreading the skills out to be more versatile but weaker.  Making all Tier 1 skills easily accessible would just let players pick-and-choose off each tree to try and get a min/max effect.  I like the idea of a player being forced to invest 2 skill points to get Tier 1 skills in off-elements.  As Korugar said, the only possible exception that makes sense would be UW since their rainbow focus would thematically give them inherent knowledge of basics from other elements (which is what you could call the Mark skill) and the UW Mark can be any mark already.  I picture "The Last Airbender" in this way, where he needs to learn the very basics of manipulating that element (Mark skill) before he can learn to make use of it in any constructive manner (Tier 1).