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Offline ddevans96Topic starter

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Round 3 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59953.msg1209607#msg1209607
« on: October 10, 2015, 08:39:17 pm »
Current Vault:
This is a more accurate representation of our Vault. When we build decks, we take cards out of here, and when we finish using the cards, they go back in.
This gives us a better idea of what we actually have available to use.
Spoiler for Cards:
In Element:
-in progress-
Out of Element A:
-in progress-
Out of Element B:
-in progress-

Matchups:
This is a list of our matches and what decks we are using for them. We want to decide our decks before finalizing our salvages and discards, rather than the reverse.
18:water Gen. ddevans96:time Gen. SpikeSpiegel
26:water Espithel:death rockstar1723
3:water JonathanCrazyJ:fire vagman13
19:water RulacMage11:earth Avenger
1:waterSpielkind:entropy Discord
Spoiler for Decks:
-in progress-

Salvaging and Discarding:
This is a list of decks we need to salvage or discard cards from. We need to first accommodate the decks we want to use this round before deciding other salvages.
Cards salvaged or saved from losing decks go back into the Current Vault.
Spoiler for Salvages:
-none, we went 0-5 last round-
Spoiler for Discards:
-in progress-

Conversions/Transmutations/Penalties:
When we're done with everything else we can decide which cards we want to convert. This way we don't accidentally convert cards we might need this round.
Spoiler for Required: X:
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 07:24:31 am by ddevans96 »
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Offline ddevans96Topic starter

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Re: Round 3 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59953.msg1209608#msg1209608
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2015, 08:39:26 pm »
Countdowns:
Deckbuilding: Duel phase has started
Battles: Fighting ends!

Event Card:

Teams must decide for the additional games before the deckbuilding phase ends, and are not allowed to withdraw from the extra game once the duel phase starts. Post in private board.
    The extra game is played after the actual match using the same decks.
    It does not count towards the result of the actual match. e.g. You may not claim a tie if you lost 2-3 but win the extra match.
    If both opposing players decide to wager, salvage and discard is doubled to 6.

-click on the event card to expand it, and again to retract it-

Notes:
Round Thread: >link<
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 07:28:36 am by ddevans96 »
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Offline ddevans96Topic starter

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Re: Round 3 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59953.msg1209793#msg1209793
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2015, 10:16:05 pm »
Alright, the bad news is that we went 0-5 last round - the good news is that we're still in third place. We need a lot of discussion this round, last round was lacking, and I feel like most of that is my fault for not pushing the team and allowing jcj to make a lot of points that might have discouraged others from participating in discussion. No one's done anything wrong, but we can't get any worse than last round, so let's get better.

First of all, we need to look at the decks our opponents have used so far this war (something jcj and Rulac said they'd do), and then go back through our ideas against them in Rounds 1 and 2 (barring Entropy since this is the first time we play them) and figure out if any of those still sound viable, then introduce new ideas. Last round we only had 1 or 2 ideas pitched out for most teams, which is a steep drop from Round 1. The more ideas we have, the more likely that one of them is the right choice, and the more likely we pick it and thus win the match.

Then we need to decide discards. We do lose large chunks of those decks, but on the bright side only one team had a net gain last round, and we do have a good card pool to choose from relative to other teams even with our losses. I think we can safely drop to one SoP deck, for example, we can safely discard some Novas and other grabbow cards because we have backups of them, etc.

Also we really need to discuss the event card this round. I'll make the thread for that shortly, but we need to have a strategy in place for that. I'm also realizing, looking at our vault, that we can make a mono-darkness with water splash with Tinkerer, as dirty as I feel for suggesting it, it'd be powerful and it'd probably also catch teams off guard. There's a couple other drastic uses of Tinkerer possible but that one strikes me the most. We should also consider decks like our adrenastaves, AM/flooding, air stall, SoP flayers/silence, AW splashes, etc that might not be as predictable.

Finally, I have to talk about subbing. I don't think what happened last round with Spiel's match is anyone's fault per se, but it needs addressed regardless. I'd like to talk to Spiel about it beforehand, whether that be through PM or in the Match Times thread where it's most relevant, but I do think it's connected our lack of communication in Round 2.
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Offline Basman-1453

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Re: Round 3 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59953.msg1209798#msg1209798
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2015, 10:42:54 pm »
* Basman-1453 is surprised dde brings DeVamp SoPa deck Bas has been messing up with for the sake of it last night (UTC+7).

I would probably help JCJ and Rulac on the espionage work, but my share would start only in two to four hours while I'm on college (I've no class to attend today, so I'll have plenty of time and connection speed to work with).
(Specifically, seeing out what they used this War.)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 11:46:35 pm by Basman-1453 »
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Re: Round 3 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59953.msg1209806#msg1209806
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2015, 11:52:18 pm »
A Summary of R3 Opponents, and what they used against us in Previous Wars

:time :time :time
Spoiler for Time:

Fractal Ghosts: :time 2 - 1 :water
Grabbow :time 0 - 1 :water
Ghostmare :time 0 - 1 :water
UG Wings :time 1 - 0 :water
SancDials :time 1 - 0 :water
MonoTime :time 1 - 0 :water
PharaohBow with Discord :time 1 - 0 :water



OHKO / StallBreak: 4 (3-1) [3-2 including Instosis in Round 1]
Denial: 2 (1-1)
Domin: 2 (1-1)
Stall: 1 (1-0)



Analysis: They like to mix it up, and they feel that they have a lot of options against us. They obviously fear our stalls, hence the amount of OHKs they send against us. Tricky, because we face Spike again and they may feel their 12 upgrade instosis is the best option once more.

:death :death :death
Spoiler for Death:

PU/FractaGons: :death 1 - 1 :water
Wings Stall: :death 0 - 2 :water
Mono Rush: :death 1 - 0 :water
Grabbow: :death 3 - 0 :water
EQ Splash: :death 0 - 1 :water



OHKO / StallBreak: 2 (1-1) [2 - 1 if you include Fleshtal R1 as Stallbreak]
Denial: 1 (0-1)
Domin: 3 (3-0)
Stall: 2 (0-2)
Rush: 1 (1-0) [2 - 0 if you include Fleshtal R1 as Rush]


Analysis: Again, a sense of fearing stall, but with a caveat: they like using Grabbow. Tough to say whether they will attempt to stallbreak again, but one of our stalls could be a solid option.

:fire :fire :fire
Spoiler for Fire:

PhoenixBolt: :fire 2 - 0 :water
Grabbow: :fire 0 - 2 :water
UG Wings: :fire 0 - 1 :water
LightFire Stall: :fire 0 - 1 :water
Fractagons: :fire 0 - 1 :water



OHKO / StallBreak: 2 (0-2)
Domin: 4 (2-2) [3 - 2 with Crimson Bolt used R1. 4 wins for Bolt monos, 2 losses for Grabbows]
Stall: 1 (0-1)



Analysis: Bolt monos work really well against us. Everything else has failed. Interesting that grabbows have suffered against us, usually we fear the grabbow. Either way, they like a Domin. Do any of our stalls work against fire? Also the option of using Bonewall in some capacity, which always does a good job vs fire.

:earth :earth :earth
Spoiler for Earth:

Grabbow: :earth 3 - 0 :water
DarkSplash Domin: :earth 1 - 0 :water
Fractal: :earth 1 - 2 :water
Mono Earth / Gravy Splash: :earth 1 - 2 :water
Disquake: :earth 0 - 1 :water



OHKO / StallBreak: 3 (1-2)
Domin: 7 (5-2) [5 - 3 with Gravy Splash used R1.]
Denial: 1 (0-1)

SIDENOTE: Although not strictly stallbreak, Pulvy can break many stalls on its own. If you include Pulvy usage as stallbreak, they are 2 - 4.



Analysis: All 3 of their Grabbows have different themes, due to the fact they are liberated from earth mark. Very hard to predict. Again, they feel our stalls could hurt them, so they pack stallbreak or pulvy a lot. Interestingly, if they went for fractal, our Antimatter flooding would be a hilarious counter. Then again, pulvy hurts..

:entropy :entropy :entropy
Spoiler for Entropy:

DarkSplash Domin: :entropy 2 - 0 :water
Grabbow: :entropy 3 - 1 :water
Fractal: :entropy 3 - 1 :water (including 1 win where we suicided)
Explosion Splash Domin: :entropy 0 - 1 :water
MonoEnropy Rush: :entropy 1 - 0 :water



OHKO / StallBreak: 4 (3-1)
Domin: 7 (5-2)
Rush: 1 (1-0)



Analysis: Essentially they boil down to Stallbreak and Domin they seem to try to mindgate us into 2 categories: stall, or not-a-stall. I'm suprised they have never DBHed us though. Or really denied us at all aside from Discord / Nightmare shoved into other decks.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 11:45:36 am by JonathanCrazyJ »
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Offline RulacMage11

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Re: Round 3 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59953.msg1209807#msg1209807
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2015, 11:54:03 pm »
War 9 so far vs. Team  :water
Round 1  :death:water 3-0 Rush.. Fleshtal V SoPaWardens
              :life:water 3-1 Domin? Nightmare Frogs V SoPaVamps
              :water:time 3-2 Rush.. Speed Poison V Instosis
              :water:earth 3-2 Domin? Grabbow V Pulvy/BB Golems
              :fire:water 3-0 Oh look..rush.. Mono Fire V Nymphcord

Round 2  :gravity:water 3-0Domin. DBH V Grabbow
              :air:water 3-1 Wise Wyrms V Mono Water + Thunderstorm Splash
              :light:water 3-0 SoFree Light + CC V SoPaVamps
              :aether:water 3-0 Poison Domin V Shipwrecker
              :darkness:water 3-0 Drainbolt OTK V Sancstall

Matchups for Round 3:
18:water Gen. ddevans96:time Gen. SpikeSpiegel
26:water Espithel:death rockstar1723
3:water JonathanCrazyJ:fire vagman13
19:water RulacMage11:earth Avenger
1:waterSpielkind:entropy Discord
As jcj stated, Time has plenty of options to use against us, but they fear our Stalls. Gen V Gen here. No Stalls. We need a rush, or strong denial.

Death is a strong rush, purify is a must. We can't risk rushing death either..

Phoenix Bolt is probably one of Fire's strongest and most common decks. Bonewall is strong against Fire as well. Luckily Phoenixes have 1 hp.. Speed Poison with BW/Dessicate(or dryspell)? We can't stall them or we get OHKO with Bolts..

Tbc.. Not enough time to finish right now :P
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 01:40:28 am by RulacMage11 »
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Re: Round 3 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59953.msg1209822#msg1209822
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2015, 01:58:08 am »
What our enemies this round have used during W9

Spoiler for Team Time:
Spoiler for R1:
Local BonusLocal DeckScoreOpposing DeckOpposing Team, Bonus
DiscardsGhostmare0 - 3Crimson Fahrenheit, Lightning splashAether, Tinkerer
LieutenantCP DuneCord1 - 3High offense DiscHoleGravity, General
SalvagePatient and Ready ScarabVu3 - 1Crimson Lance FahrenheitFire, Sideboard
GeneralSilurian Instosis OTK2 - 3Speed PoisonWater, Tinkerer
UpgradesBone Wall Poison Dial0 - 3Graboid/Lycan PSNBowEntropy, Lieutenant


Spoiler for R2:
Local BonusLocal DeckScoreOpposing DeckOpposing Team, Bonus
GeneralDrawpower RoL/Hope3 - 0Shrieking RTQuakeEarth, Lieutenant
DiscardsMito/SoG Devonian/Ghost0 - 3Air Nymph/Wyrm offenseAir, General
MercenaryGhostly Grabbow3 - 1Silent FleshTalDeath, Upgrades
UpgradesPatient and Ready ScarabVu3 - 2Divinely Miraculous RoL/HopeLight, Lieutenant
LieutenantDrain the Void3 - 1Froggy Nova GrabbowLife, Lieutenant

Spoiler for Team Death:
Spoiler for R1:
Local BonusLocal DeckScoreOpposing DeckOpposing Team, Bonus
DiscardsToxic Lance/Bonestall0 - 3Air Nymph DiscHoleAir, General
GeneralPatient Octopi and Jellyfishes3 - 1PsionTal (wtf~)Light, Tinkerer
UpgradesMono rush0 - 3Dim GravGuardTalGravity, Salvage
LieutenantMono rush0 - 3Patient Squids and VampiresDarkness, Lieutenant
SideboardDim FleshTal3 - 0Patient WardensWater, General


Spoiler for R2:
Local BonusLocal DeckScoreOpposing DeckOpposing Team, Bonus
LieutenantRecluses' Wings1- 3Lycan/Graboid PSNBowEntropy, General
DiscardsPandemonic Bone Walls2 - 3DImmolation FractixFire, General
UpgradesSilent FleshTal1 - 3Ghostly GrabbowTime, Mercenary
GeneralToxic Lance/Bonestall3 - 2Aether/Light stallAether, Lieutenant
SideboardMiraculous PDial/SoSac2 - 3Spirited Nymph and OctopiLife, General

Spoiler for Team Fire:
Spoiler for R1:
Local BonusLocal DeckScoreOpposing DeckOpposing Team, Bonus
Salvage(1)Immolation Fractix0 - 3FFQ/HopeLife, Sideboard
LieutenantImmolation Rainbow3 - 0IvoryTal BoneboltDeath, Lieutenant
UpgradesGraboid Cremation3 - 0Pulverizer Steel GolemsEarth, Salvage
SideboardCrimson Lance Fahrenheit1 - 3Patient and Ready ScarabVuTime, Salvage
GeneralFahrenheit/Bolt Phoenix3 - 0NymphCordWater, Lieutenant

(1) Best guess. The deck Odii used didn't need the requirement relaxations of Tinkerer nor Mercenary; he discarded six cards (so no Discards); and it only packs 31 cards (so no Sideboard, Sideboard has already used by vagman notwithstanding). Who would know he actually used Gambler back then~ >_<


Spoiler for R2:
Local BonusLocal DeckScoreOpposing DeckOpposing Team, Bonus
SideboardCrimson Phoenix, Rewind splash0 - 3Death rush, Grav Guard splashGravity, Tinkerer
GeneralDImmolation Fractix2 - 3Pandemonic Bone WallsDeath, Discards
LieutenantSteel and Lava Golems' Cremation3 - 2StormWallAir, Tinkerer
DiscardsFire/Light stall1 - 3DiscBoidEntropy, Upgrades
Salvage (1)Immolation rush0 - 3Doll Pull/NovaBoidDarkness, Mercenary

(1) Best guess. The deck Jedno used didn't need the requirement relaxations of Tinkerer nor Mercenary; he discarded nine cards (so no Discard, Discard has been used by vagman notwithstanding); and it only packs 30 cards (so no Sideboard, Sideboard has been used by Odii notwithstanding).
That leaves Salvage, Gambler, and Upgrades. (The reason I did not exclude Salvage and Upgrades is that W9R2's event card was two extra upgrades per one salvage.)
Sacrificing two salvages from Salvage role bonus will leave Team Fire at zero net salvage change, while using Upgrades and sacrificing one salvage for two extra upgrades will net Team Fire one less salvage.

Spoiler for Team Earth:
Spoiler for R1:
Local BonusLocal DeckScoreOpposing DeckOpposing Team, Bonus
LieutenantPatiently Quaking Wardens3 - 0RoL/HopeLight, Mercenary
GeneralEarth/Light Immortal1 - 3Devourer/Dragon monoDarkness, General
SalvagePulverizer Steel Golems0 - 3Graboid CremationFire, Upgrades
DiscardsPulv/BB Steel Golems2 - 3Abyssal Toadfish GrabbowWater, Mercenary
TinkererGraboid PSNBow3 - 1Wise Immortal WyrmsAir, Upgrades


Spoiler for R2:
Local BonusLocal DeckScoreOpposing DeckOpposing Team, Bonus
LieutenantShrieking RTQuake0 - 3Drawpower RoL/HopeTime, General
TinkererRoL/Hope (wtf~)2 - 3ChargerTalGravity, General
SalvageGolems' Nightmare1 - 3Chaos WyrmsEntropy, Tinkerer
UpgradesGrabBow3 - 1AdrenaFree FFQLife, Sideboard
General (1)Pulv/BB Steel GolemF - FSteelGTalAether, Tinkerer

(1) In all fairness, I wished I can put the note on the Score tab (but that'll disrupt the balance of the table), since this refers to that Earth v Aether W9R2 match that never was and ended in double forfeit. I tricked the its scores into a F - F (to indicate double forfeits). (I'll use S for suicide decks whenever this happens, but who would actually post a suicide as early as R2? :P)

Spoiler for Team Entropy:
Spoiler for R1:
Local BonusLocal DeckScoreOpposing DeckOpposing Team, Bonus
Salvage (1)Abomination/Lycanthropic Theft1 - 3Otys are Patiently SwallowingGravity, Lieutenant
GeneralDiscHole w/ SoFo2 - 3Dimensional Sanctuary stallAether, Salvage
SideboardExplosive Ragin' Dragons2 - 3StormWallAir, Discards (2)
TinkererChaos Wyrms3 - 0VaderSader/GrabbowLight, Sideboard (3)
LieutenantDim FleshTal3 - 0Patient WardensWater, General

(1) The deck asdf used did not require the requirement relaxations of either Mercenary, Sideboard, Tinkerer, or Upgrades (Sideboard and Tinkerer used notwithstanding) and six cards were discarded (so no Discards). Considering the unreliability of Gambler, I'm guessing Salvage here.

(2) The deck rogerluc used did not require the requirement relaxations of either Mercenary, Sideboard, Tinkerer, or Upgrades, and four cards were salvaged (so no Salvages). Considering Gambler's unreliability, I'm guessing Discards here.

(3) The actual Lieutenant of Light during W9R1 was Blacksmith instead of Seulin; qwert actually mistook the deck he played against as a Lieutenant deck (while it was actually a Sideboard one).



Spoiler for R2:
Local BonusLocal DeckScoreOpposing DeckOpposing Team, Bonus
GeneralLycan/Graboid PSNBow3 - 1Recluses' WingsDeath, Lieutenant
SideboardSoFo/Pull Entropic rush (w/ upped Pandemoniums)3 - 1Deflagrating AdrenaStaffLife, Discards
UpgradesDiscBoid3 - 1Fire/Light stallFire, Discards
LieutenantQuantum Graboid DiscHole1 - 3Dark/Light stallDarkness, Lieutenant
TinkererChaos Wyrms3 - 1Golems' NightmareEarth, Salvage


"Tojiko, can you guess what bonus did that deck have?" "Salvage? Wait, Gambler? Oh, for F's sake!"
(You'd note that I'd shy away from guessing Gambler because Gambler is as risky as it sounds (imagine Gambling on a 3-2, intentionally losing twice after leading a 2-0, then losing the fifth game due to sheer bad luck T_T).)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 01:39:07 am by Basman-1453 »
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Re: Round 3 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59953.msg1210011#msg1210011
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2015, 11:16:07 pm »
Alright, love the breakdown so far, if Bas can finish his analysis I think we'll have a good platform to work with.

EDIT: Alright, going to comb through the combined notes of jcj, Rulac, and Bas and try to get some suggestions on the table tonight. If any of you see this in the next three hours (before 0900 GMT), meet me in chat asap for discussion.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 05:33:11 am by ddevans96 »
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Offline ddevans96Topic starter

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Re: Round 3 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59953.msg1210038#msg1210038
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2015, 05:56:30 am »
My initial thoughts are these:

Death: Unlikely they'll use Dim Reclusetal against us again, so I don't think we have to worry about fractal and dims here. With that, I'm leaning towards either the air stall or the air domin. Probably the latter as we're going to need to discard Thunderstorms and that's probably going to weaken the air stall greatly and we'll probably want to use dry spell elsewhere. There's also a control mono like we considered r1 as well.

Fire: I like any of the ideas suggested against Fire for round 1 - RT splash, toadmare/dark domin, or a bone wall/dry spell deck. We're one of the stronger elements against Fire generally, just have to send something strong with control and it stands a good chance, in hindsight I think I was biased in supporting nymphcord R1 and something else would have been the better choice.

Entropy: I'm really expecting them to break the mold against us and try some form of denial, which lends itself to speed poison, but I'm not quite sure that's viable here. Maybe a nova deck but it'd be tough if they did send DBH. Maybe something really heavy on quanta, like a nymph rush with some support. Maybe just something with a really robust quanta split to help with EQ.

Earth: I'm leaning toadmare. Helps greatly with the threat of fractal (which I think would normal be a strong choice against us from them right now), isn't really weak to pulvy, strong in general. We talked about the Air stall round 1 but testing with Espi left me with a lot of concerns about that matchup. Dials/miracles (see bow) could be a decent choice as well if we think pulvy won't be used.

Time: Anything with FW or SoP isn't terribly practical due to the threat of RT. General battles are always interesting, doubly so when you're facing someone who hates you. I admittedly have no clue what to do here but for some reason my gut is screaming fire splash (without steammies, crawlers/NT for offense) so I'll post that. The other idea worth noting is a barebones dial/miracle deck, that's slim enough to get both water control and damage out, but dials and miracles hold a lot of stall.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 06:04:43 am by ddevans96 »
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Re: Round 3 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59953.msg1210040#msg1210040
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2015, 06:22:27 am »
My biggest fears here are:
         
     Entropy. Entropy hasn't thrown any antimatters out so far(that I can remember seeing). Speed Poison(which we've already ran) counters an AM stall, and Nymph Rush can easily outnumber their numbers of antimatters unless they get an early nymph(which are easily CCable). However they've been running really strong denials and rushes. Nymph Rush with Bolts(for SoFos?)

     Time. Their decks are really varied, and we can expect almost any deck. Gen v Gen match could easily result in them running a faster Instosis(highly unlikely though), a Stall, or Ghostmare. Ddevans suggested 2 decks that sound viable. I'd love to see them.

Other than those 2, the rest of the deck suggestions for the match-ups sound viable. I'm afraid of Phoenixbolt, and Drywall sounds pretty darn good even if they didn't bring Phoenixbolt. Air Stall V Death; and Toadmare V Earth - sound great.
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Re: Round 3 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59953.msg1210042#msg1210042
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2015, 06:42:44 am »
Discussion with Rulac about a barebones NT/bolt deck against Entropy (I'm thinking 5 NT, 6 bolts, 3 ice shield, 16 quanta - put all the upgrades towards quanta so we have a 3/4/4/5 mono split) has proven interesting. It goes against both my own philosphy and the typical philosophy of Water teams, and that makes it unpredictable.  Right now it's my preference.
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Re: Round 3 - Main Topic https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59953.msg1210059#msg1210059
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2015, 09:06:35 am »
That idea looks great! But can use 2 nymphs 3 tears not?
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