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miniwally

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Re: Round 2 - Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14881.msg190254#msg190254
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2010, 03:22:48 pm »
Essence where are the freezes you keep going on about in the deck vs Kael?

wavedash

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Re: Round 2 - Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14881.msg190283#msg190283
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2010, 04:13:34 pm »
Holy shit, we've got a lot of TOUGH matches this round.  When I looked at the OP, I didn't notice that the actual opponents weren't listed.  This is going to be hard, and it's time to get REALLY out of the box.
Yeah, probably should fix that.

Also, where do we draw the line for what goes in this thread and what goes in the decks thread? Good shit, Essence, but I'm not going to stick all of it in the first post because a lot of it is deck-specific.

wavedash

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Re: Round 2 - Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14881.msg190317#msg190317
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2010, 05:20:38 pm »
D-D-D-DOUBLEPOST

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=t2iflA4ft3XL3fHlh_dMTWw&hl=en&authkey=COKB0IIO#gid=0 (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=t2iflA4ft3XL3fHlh_dMTWw&hl=en&authkey=COKB0IIO#gid=0)

I really have no idea how I could make it directly calculate damage from Fractal. You'll have to manually figure out how many Dragons you can play.

And errors you guys see?

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Re: Round 2 - Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14881.msg190322#msg190322
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2010, 05:41:58 pm »

This time, we fight fire with fire.
Code: [Select]
5f6 5f6 5f6 5f6 5fc 5fc 5fc 5fc 5i8 5i8 5ii 5ii 5ii 5ii 5ii 5ii 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jmThey brought a lot of Permanent Control and Creature Control past rounds. This variation of the deck Essence used in round 1 counters well their cards:


FireBolt = Completely Uneffective against Phoenixes and Steam Machines
FireShield = Deflagration
DimShield Stall = Deflagration, again
That Freaky rainbow with grabbys that killed me = Heh, I don't know how to counter it
Deflagration = No worries for this deck
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miniwally

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Re: Round 2 - Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14881.msg190375#msg190375
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2010, 06:49:13 pm »
elements doesn't allow for 16 steam machines per deck....

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Re: Round 2 - Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14881.msg190382#msg190382
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2010, 06:55:23 pm »
elements doesn't allow for 16 steam machines per deck....
That's what happens when I use trainer to build decks then try to "fix" the code.

There are meant to be 6xSteams, 14xPends.
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Offline Vinvick3714

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Re: Round 2 - Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14881.msg190448#msg190448
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2010, 08:33:26 pm »
OK, everyone keeps talking about Pegasai, but our glance into the Light Vault shows zero Pegasai.  Their only permanent control comes from deflags; their only denial comes from Earthquakes (which, given the rest of their vault, only really looks good in a Stoneskin/Miracle Stall).  More importantly their only offense cards are Phoenix, Ice Bolt, Morning Star, and Dune Scorpion.

To me, that means that the only fast offense they have at all is Dune+Blessing, which is brutal, but they won't bring it against us because they know we pack Purifies.

So, how to take advantage of a slow offense without risking a loss to plural Miracles?  I think Wavedash had the answer last time, but we didn't go far enough down the path: Mindgates are the win vs. Light.  We have an advantage in that they don't know that we have Dim Shields, so they're not likely to bring mad permanent control.

Code: [Select]
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OK, here's the deal with this deck.  If you see a Mark of Time, hold your Purifies until you can start chaining Dim Shields, because Neurotoxin is a bitch.  Otherwise, play them right away because every point of damage you can heal will be helpful.  With 5 Ice Bolts in your hand, it takes 102 quanta to kill your opponent. BUT, if you can draw Fractal+Ice Dragon, you can OHK MUCH earlier by casting several Ice Bolts and then a Dragon and Fractalling it and casting 8 more copies all in one round.

In the meantime, you want to Mindgate as much as you can to copy their strategy and use it against them. I think this is our best chance of pulling this HUGE upset -- which I'd really like to see happen.

Vinvick, your assignment is to, between now and your match with Xdude, figure out how to quickly calculate IceBolt damage so you know exactly when to Bolt. :)
Alright, I was playing around with the deck, and I found it water-light. I was never able to get more than 40 water quanta to icebolt with. Is that still enough because of my fractalled dragons? Or should I add some water pillars (3 or 4) and take out that many pendulums? Also, the dim. shields are clogging up my hand at times. What's my priority, mindgates or dim. shields?


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Re: Round 2 - Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14881.msg190534#msg190534
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2010, 09:55:24 pm »
Holy shit, we've got a lot of TOUGH matches this round.  When I looked at the OP, I didn't notice that the actual opponents weren't listed.  This is going to be hard, and it's time to get REALLY out of the box.

In order of how hard the matches are going to be (hardest to easiest), I predict:

1) Vinvick vs. Xdude
2) Raving vs. Kael Hate
3) Nilsie vs. KDZ
4) Wavedash vs. Xuru
5) Miniwally vs. jmdt
6) Dictator vs. coinich
7) Unit vs. Gyrodiot
8 ) Bluesky vs. willing3
9) Me vs. Numbers.


As such, I'm going to give complete deck and strategy suggestions for every one of those matches, in the order of difficulty, so the most challenging match gets the first pick of cards, etc.

I'm also going to choose cards from the Propaganda bonus based on what I think will most help us through some of these difficult fights.


OK, everyone keeps talking about Pegasai, but our glance into the Light Vault shows zero Pegasai.  Their only permanent control comes from deflags; their only denial comes from Earthquakes (which, given the rest of their vault, only really looks good in a Stoneskin/Miracle Stall).  More importantly their only offense cards are Phoenix, Ice Bolt, Morning Star, and Dune Scorpion.

To me, that means that the only fast offense they have at all is Dune+Blessing, which is brutal, but they won't bring it against us because they know we pack Purifies.

So, how to take advantage of a slow offense without risking a loss to plural Miracles?  I think Wavedash had the answer last time, but we didn't go far enough down the path: Mindgates are the win vs. Light.  We have an advantage in that they don't know that we have Dim Shields, so they're not likely to bring mad permanent control.

Code: [Select]
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OK, here's the deal with this deck.  If you see a Mark of Time, hold your Purifies until you can start chaining Dim Shields, because Neurotoxin is a bitch.  Otherwise, play them right away because every point of damage you can heal will be helpful.  With 5 Ice Bolts in your hand, it takes 102 quanta to kill your opponent. BUT, if you can draw Fractal+Ice Dragon, you can OHK MUCH earlier by casting several Ice Bolts and then a Dragon and Fractalling it and casting 8 more copies all in one round.

In the meantime, you want to Mindgate as much as you can to copy their strategy and use it against them. I think this is our best chance of pulling this HUGE upset -- which I'd really like to see happen.

Vinvick, your assignment is to, between now and your match with Xdude, figure out how to quickly calculate IceBolt damage so you know exactly when to Bolt. :)


Interestingly, the Darkness Vault shows no Earthquakes, which  means a standard EQ+Devourer denial is unlikely.  They'd have to run Fractal Pests to really deny us strongly, and I don't think Kael Hate regards this match as threatening enough to warrant Fractal Pests, seeing as he's only got enough Fractals to do that once and Darkness is also facing down the Master of Fire, the former Master of Gravity, and one :light opponent. So, while denial is always an issue vs. Devourers, it's not going to be overwhelming. 

On the other hand, Kael Hate fought for me in the last War, and he knows my basic sense of style.  That might work against me, so I'm going to go with my second idea on the theory that KH will adequately counter my first.

They've kind of got us over a barrel because they have Quints and Phase Dragons to avoid CC, and Steals to avoid Ice Shield.  So, we're going to do something they won't see coming: a deck designed to outrush them.

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Strategy is simple: Freeze the Devourers to get enough quanta to get going.  Adrenaline a Forest Scorpion.  Use Nymphs Tears to create Green Nymphs to generate more Adrenaline.  Forest Spirits will provide big hitters that can survive a Parasite's Infection easily. This deck neatly sidesteps Antimatter by using Poison and Growth to drive the damage home, kills Bone Wall, and works through Dusk Mantle and Basilisks Blood by attacking a lot and inflicting poison. Problem cards from their Vault: Lightning (will kill Scorpions fast), Purify (they will probably bring this, but if they do, it means they're probably using a deck like KH used in Round 1, which SHOULD perish to Freeze on it's Graboids and then outrush by Spectres and Nymphs...hopefully.)

I rate this about 60/40 in our favor with this deck.  I'm also tempted to use a Propaganda Card or two to acquire Heals to use with this deck...IDK

Damn...I'm out of time for now.  That went by way too fast.  Tell me what you think of my estimations and ideas thus far, and I'll try to do more later.
On the deck of vinvick, I can only think of two ways to lose: 1 Bad draw. 2 Fractal/RoL/Hope.
The second can be fixed by adding ice shields, and or floodings (might cost too much water quantums).
I like these, and some heals can always be usefull, so why not, and we haven't used any life in the first round, so it will make an even bigger surprise.

Wavedash's deck IMHO:


6xBone Pillar (from propaganda cards.)
6xPoison
3xArsenic
5xChrysaora
6xFreeze
4xPurify

Mark:  :water


Unit's deck:

15xWater Pendulums
6xToadfishes
6xFreeze
3xIce Bolt

Any specific reason for these setups?

This time, we fight fire with fire.
Code: [Select]
5f6 5f6 5f6 5f6 5fc 5fc 5fc 5fc 5i8 5i8 5ii 5ii 5ii 5ii 5ii 5ii 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jmThey brought a lot of Permanent Control and Creature Control past rounds. This variation of the deck Essence used in round 1 counters well their cards:


FireBolt = Completely Uneffective against Phoenixes and Steam Machines
FireShield = Deflagration
DimShield Stall = Deflagration, again
That Freaky rainbow with grabbys that killed me = Heh, I don't know how to counter it
Deflagration = No worries for this deck
I like the idea to fight fire with fire, and it might even work too. Maybe we should add some more freeze or ice bolts too the deck, to freeze rushes (pun intended).

D-D-D-DOUBLEPOST

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=t2iflA4ft3XL3fHlh_dMTWw&hl=en&authkey=COKB0IIO#gid=0 (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=t2iflA4ft3XL3fHlh_dMTWw&hl=en&authkey=COKB0IIO#gid=0)

I really have no idea how I could make it directly calculate damage from Fractal. You'll have to manually figure out how many Dragons you can play.

And errors you guys see?
I made it easier to use, as it now calculates automatically if you can play the number of dragons you can get with fractal. (See A43).
Oh, and I fixed a minor flaw, because the number of dragons you can play is 9-(cards that are not Bolt/ Drag/ First Frac)
Because you drop the dragon first, then you use fractal, filling your empty spaces, and play those dragons. And, any fractal other than the first one still clog up your hand.
Also, I added a shield reduction column, as xdude might use mirror shield, or hope.

OK, everyone keeps talking about Pegasai, but our glance into the Light Vault shows zero Pegasai.  Their only permanent control comes from deflags; their only denial comes from Earthquakes (which, given the rest of their vault, only really looks good in a Stoneskin/Miracle Stall).  More importantly their only offense cards are Phoenix, Ice Bolt, Morning Star, and Dune Scorpion.

To me, that means that the only fast offense they have at all is Dune+Blessing, which is brutal, but they won't bring it against us because they know we pack Purifies.

So, how to take advantage of a slow offense without risking a loss to plural Miracles?  I think Wavedash had the answer last time, but we didn't go far enough down the path: Mindgates are the win vs. Light.  We have an advantage in that they don't know that we have Dim Shields, so they're not likely to bring mad permanent control.

Code: [Select]
5i8 5i8 5i8 5i8 5i8 5i8 5ia 5ia 5id 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 622 623 623 623 623 623
OK, here's the deal with this deck.  If you see a Mark of Time, hold your Purifies until you can start chaining Dim Shields, because Neurotoxin is a bitch.  Otherwise, play them right away because every point of damage you can heal will be helpful.  With 5 Ice Bolts in your hand, it takes 102 quanta to kill your opponent. BUT, if you can draw Fractal+Ice Dragon, you can OHK MUCH earlier by casting several Ice Bolts and then a Dragon and Fractalling it and casting 8 more copies all in one round.

In the meantime, you want to Mindgate as much as you can to copy their strategy and use it against them. I think this is our best chance of pulling this HUGE upset -- which I'd really like to see happen.

Vinvick, your assignment is to, between now and your match with Xdude, figure out how to quickly calculate IceBolt damage so you know exactly when to Bolt. :)
Alright, I was playing around with the deck, and I found it water-light. I was never able to get more than 40 water quanta to icebolt with. Is that still enough because of my fractalled dragons? Or should I add some water pillars (3 or 4) and take out that many pendulums? Also, the dim. shields are clogging up my hand at times. What's my priority, mindgates or dim. shields?

I think you can chance some pendulums to pillars, because each pendulum you get by mindgate will create aether quanta too. And I would say, try to hold you dim shield in your hand as long as possible, because xdude might drop a lot of damage at a time. Tip, if you see the card you mindgated is useless, don't use the other mindgates (for example you need only one morning star). But, another thing, maybe we should take a reflective shield in the deck (from propaganda bonus), that reduces the chance you can't bolt because he has one up (his reflective shield in starting hand, no mind gates in time).
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Re: Round 2 - Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14881.msg190541#msg190541
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2010, 10:02:42 pm »
Wavedash's deck IMHO:


6xBone Pillar (from propaganda cards.)
6xPoison
3xArsenic
5xChrysaora
6xFreeze
4xPurify

Mark:  :water


Unit's deck:

15xWater Pendulums
6xToadfishes
6xFreeze
3xIce Bolt

Any specific reason for these setups?
Well... Wavedash is against death.
Purifies, Freezes and Poison. How can they counter those?



Then, IDK why but that seems a good deck against Air.
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Offline Vinvick3714

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Re: Round 2 - Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14881.msg190557#msg190557
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2010, 10:17:46 pm »
I just practiced against mini, and beat him both times. We did desync at the end, but I beat his AI both times too. The deck is pretty awesome, he was using a dune scorpion/light deck. It worked really well, but I'm not sure if I need more water quanta, cause I'm only using it at the end. It works really well IMO without pillars in PvP. I don't know, it could have been luck of the draw though.

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Re: Round 2 - Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14881.msg190608#msg190608
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2010, 11:06:16 pm »
RoL / Hope isn't much of a threat, what with the not having Fractals. Or Hopes.

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Re: Round 2 - Strategy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14881.msg190668#msg190668
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2010, 12:10:30 am »
Essence where are the freezes you keep going on about in the deck vs Kael?
Oops -- I wrote that paragraph and edited that deck like six times in 20 minutes; looks like my last idea was "screw it, all the cards are cheap anyway, we'll just work around the damn Devourers and drop Freeze altogether."

:)
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