Prewar - Deck Layout

[Espithel]

I would like to suggest some personal decks. Extremely rough sketches; All I know is I've used these decks in the past and they've been effective (minus the last one), but we will definitely need to iron these out.

Spoiler for Hidden:

Bleed

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55t 55t 55t 55t 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5ia 5ia 5ib 5ib 5ib 5ib 5ib 5ib 5ig 5ig 5j2 5j2 5j2 5j2 5j2 8pl

As an alternative to Swallow should swallow prove to be far too costly on gravity.

Antiquity

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5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ii 5ii 5ii 5ii 5ii 5rg 5rg 5rk 5rk 5rk 5se 5se 5se 5se 5t2 5t2 8ps

An alternative to Steam Machine in a water/fire should time prove to be better. I've tested this before in some different combination, and it was a very hard hitter. Finding a way to add SoPa/Purify into the mix would be lovely.

The WTFBOW

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5i4 5i5 5i5 5i5 5j2 5j2 5j2 5j2 5j2 5j2 5jm 5jm 5l9 5l9 5l9 5l9 5l9 5l9 61p 61p 61p 61p 61p 61p 77e 77e 77e 7gk 7gk 7i6 8pp

Suicidal rush capable of almost guaranteed 5-4 turn kills. Modded for 50% limit, which will make it slow, perhaps only doable with 40%. Recommended upgrades stated, gnomes instead of damselflies due to cost.

NTLA

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50u 50u 50u 50u 50u 50u 50u 50u 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5io 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 606 606 606 606 606 606 606 8pp

Another deck that suffers from a 50% limit, may only be usable with a 40% limit. The benefit of this over strict LA is that this serves as a form of quanta denial, and you can get as many leeches out as your opponent has pillars. Adding flooding into the mix would be enjoyable.

Really bad SoW Reflect

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I couldn't help myself.
...This isn't ever getting used.

[Basman-1453]

(My comments are in cyan and italic, as per my usual WPSIC post. I'll also post the costs of each deck Espi offered.)

I would like to suggest some personal decks. Extremely rough sketches; All I know is I've used these decks in the past and they've been effective (minus the last one), but we will definitely need to iron these out.

Spoiler for Hidden:

Bleed/1280

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55t 55t 55t 55t 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5ia 5ia 5ib 5ib 5ib 5ib 5ib 5ib 5ig 5ig 5j2 5j2 5j2 5j2 5j2 8pl

As an alternative to Swallow should swallow prove to be far too costly on gravity.
I don't really think it can recover from bad start (first Squid/Grav Pull come late, early-game Fractal/died Squid, et al) well enough. Even if it does, I think five SoPa is overkill.

Antiquity/1090

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An alternative to Steam Machine in a water/fire should time prove to be better. I've tested this before in some different combination, and it was a very hard hitter. Finding a way to add SoPa/Purify into the mix would be lovely.
Interesting idea, I must admit. Now I wonder what other Water-based tactics that could be boosted by SoRea that warrants chucking 600 points for four of 'em should this tactic turns unusable.

The WTFBOW/1575

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5i4 5i5 5i5 5i5 5j2 5j2 5j2 5j2 5j2 5j2 5jm 5jm 5l9 5l9 5l9 5l9 5l9 5l9 61p 61p 61p 61p 61p 61p 77e 77e 77e 7gk 7gk 7i6 8pp

Suicidal rush capable of almost guaranteed 5-4 turn kills. Modded for 50% limit, which will make it slow, perhaps only doable with 40%. Recommended upgrades stated, gnomes instead of damselflies due to cost.
Interesting idea, but again, five SoPa in a 30-decker sounds like overkill to me, nevermind six. Also, I'd nuke the Photons (and one or two SoPa at least) and stuff in three Chrysaorae, maybe an Ultiharid, and Water Pillars/Pends to fill the void for cost reasons.

NTLA/355

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50u 50u 50u 50u 50u 50u 50u 50u 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5io 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 606 606 606 606 606 606 606 8pp

Another deck that suffers from a 50% limit, may only be usable with a 40% limit. The benefit of this over strict LA is that this serves as a form of quanta denial, and you can get as many leeches out as your opponent has pillars. Adding flooding into the mix would be enjoyable.
Eh, NT decks aren't really viable for quanta denial (unless you're running Grav/Water NT, but I have yet to personally test how viable that combo is, and I suspect that it'll require some SoPa to buff the frail Amber Nymphs); even the Death/Water NT deck I'm fond of can only safely deny pillars after their field is filled to the brim with Malignant Cells.

Really bad SoW Reflect/452

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I couldn't help myself.
...This isn't ever getting used.
It's not even SoW/Reflect. You forgot the Shards of Wisdom. -_-;

That being said, I was ... sort of relieved to learn that Death/Water rush and Air-splash Toady is already planned for. Here are my spin on them.

Spoiler for Death/Water rush (uses NT):

the Embodiment of Septic Devil/320

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It's going to be weak to early-game ability disables or RT, but ... I've yet to figure out how to get around it. I've tried to place Skull Shields in place of Ice Shields, but I end up finding Ice Shield easier to employ than Skull Shields. Plain Shields may even be slapped in there if cost is a problem
A way to insert Arsenics would be lovely to peruse the excess Death quanta.

Spoiler for Air Toadfish:

The Freezing of District 109/520

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Probably can use one or two Water Pends instead of Pillars. Maybe even Flooding, if only to turn the deck's name into The Flooding of District 109 *hammer*

I also find Life/Water NT intriguing offensively, but I don't think it'll be viable for War situations due to its (near-)lack of control and anti-control options.

[JonathanCrazyJ]

EDIT: Updated with at least rough builds for all decks in the archetype list.

Excellent work guys, it's great to throw out so many ideas. Rulac, I think your tinkerer decks are just a step too far for this event, because tinkerer should only be used with decks that we can't do anything like them in a 50% in element. The LS deck is closer to what could work, the problem is it is really easilly countered by healing, CC, shields etc. It would work great against rushes, but very few War teams run flat out rushes. I love the idea though, keep thinking of combos and I'm sure one of them will be workable

Espi, after talking with dd, the problem with SoPa decks is the cost of SoPa, so it's only really the most versatile and all-round decks (Swallow, Vampires, Wardens etc) which we'll be able to field (with only 4-8 SoPa in vault most likely), which is a shame because I actually quite like the GP one as a concept, but so few other decks we can run would use GP. Unfortunately the same applies to the Ready Steamies deck, as SoR is really expensive, and we don't really gain anything from running it over standard steamies. I do think the great thing about the Liquid AM deck is that if we find ourselves late in war we can easilly pull it out if we are running low on decks, because Pillars Pends are not in vault. Just wish we could actually run SoW Reflect XD.

Bas, both those decks are pretty decent. The Death Nymph one is great for the same reason as Espi's Liquid AM, cause we can make it late on when running out of options. It wasn't actually the type of death rush i had in mind though haha, this is why sharing any idea no matter if it's only half-formed is great The mono with air mark is good, we'll probably tinker with it.

Good work guys. Now this:

Preliminary tweaking of decks filling their archetype. Red indicates I think others will do a better job at build. Work In Progress.
Cost of ALL decks (including every stall option, every wildcard option etc, is 16515).
I think we underestimated how many expensive cards we can afford, as we will obviously not use this many decks in our final cut. Tech cards, extra novas, extra SoPas, all on the table.

Spoiler for Deck 1 - Grabbow:

Grabbow for lieutenant. Designed to be cheaper and effective for Market. Skull buckler works well with the limited use of Toadfish - slowly lowering hp = faster Skellie kills. Congeal hits bigger creatures.

Cost 1581

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4vh 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 55q 590 590 590 590 5c1 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5ie 5ie 5if 5jm 5jm 6rl 715 7dm 7gm 7gm 7gm 7gn 7gn 7i6 8pm

Grabbow for Soldier using Mercenary (40% in element). This is an excellent version, and allows for very close to a 'Full' Grabbow. Great Deck.

Cost 1931

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4vh 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 55q 590 590 590 590 590 5c1 5c1 5i4 5i4 5i4 5ie 5ie 5if 5jm 5og 71a 7dm 7gm 7gm 7gn 7gn 7i6 8pm

Spoiler for Deck 2 - Utility Bow / Trio:

Spoiler for Chrysaora Dials:

Cost 1630

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4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 52q 52q 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i5 5i5 5i5 5i5 5i5 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5rp 5rp 5rp 5rp 71a 71b 71b 71b 7gr 7gr 7gr 8pk

Spoiler for Shipwrecker (Patient Wardens with Pulvy):

Cost 1145

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Spoiler for Nymph UGs (Tears + air pends):

Cost 465

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5f9 5f9 5f9 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5io 5io 5jm 5jm 5jm 5oc 5oc 5pu 5pu 7gk 7gk 7gk 7i6 7i6 7ms 7oe 8pr

Spoiler for Deck 3 - Domin A:

Spoiler for Toadmare:

Cost 1042

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5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5ie 5ie 5ie 5ie 5ie 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5up 5up 5v1 5v1 5v1 5v1 7gm 7gm 7gp 7gp 7t9 7tb 7tb 8pt

Spoiler for Steam Machines:

Cost 760

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5f6 5f6 5f6 5fb 5fb 5fb 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i7 5i7 5i7 5ii 5ii 5ii 5ii 5ii 5io 5io 5jm 5jm 5jm 7gk 7gk 7gk 7i6 7i6 7i6 7i6 8po

Spoiler for NymphCord:

Cost 1180

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4vl 4vl 4vl 4vl 55k 55k 55k 55k 56i 56i 56i 576 576 576 5i4 5i4 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5jm 5jm 744 7gk 7gk 7gm 7gm 7i6 7i6 7i6 8pj

Spoiler for Deck 4 - Domin B:

Spoiler for Patient Vamps + steal:

Cost 1252

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Spoiler for Toads + Eagle's Eye:

Cost 685

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5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i9 5i9 5ie 5ie 5ie 5ie 5ie 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5on 5on 5on 7gm 7gm 7gm 7gm 7gm 7n5 7n5 8pr

Spoiler for Patient Wardens:

Can only be run by lieutenant+ due to Gnomes

Cost 1055

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Spoiler for Deck 5 - Denial:

Spoiler for Serpentine:

Room for improvement. Squids necessary? Quanta Balanced?

Cost 720

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Spoiler for NymphQuake:

Don't think soldier could pull this off. It's a pretty sweet deck actually.

Cost 570

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58o 593 593 593 593 593 593 5aa 5aa 5i4 5i4 5i4 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5io 5io 5jm 5jm 5jm 778 778 778 78q 78q 78q 7gk 7gk 7i6 8pp

Spoiler for Patient Devourers:

Dark pillar/pends there to give you a shot of 1st or 2nd turn dev. Pleased with this as Denial or domin.

Cost 1270

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5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5ib 5ib 5ib 5ib 5ib 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5up 5up 5us 5us 7hi 7hi 7hi 7t4 7t4 7um 7um 8pt

Spoiler for Deck 6 and 7 - Stalls:

Spoiler for Water/Entropy Stall:

Lieutenant build

Cost 700

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Spoiler for Water/Air Stall:

Built this based on one dd used in trials. Expensive as is, but sure someone could slimline it.

Cost 1405

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5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i8 5i8 5i8 5i8 5i8 5i8 5ib 5ib 5ig 5ig 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5oh 5oh 5oh 5oh 5on 5on 5on 5on 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 7gr 7gr 7gr 7gr 7n5 7n5 7n5 8pr

Spoiler for Water/Light Stall:

Again, pricey. Looks like stall A really needs to be the flooding antimatter.

Cost 1430

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Spoiler for Deck 8, 9, 10 - Wild Cards:

Spoiler for Water/Death Rush:

If we are going to run something more rushy, it should be with as many ups as poss. Gen deck. Used Bas's deck and a deck dd made for Trials final as inspiration.

Cost 560

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52g 52g 542 542 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i9 5i9 5ig 5ig 5ig 5ig 5jm 5jm 5jm 710 710 713 713 713 713 71a 71a 72i 7gk 7gk 7i6 8pk

Spoiler for AdrennaPuffers:

One for lieutennant. Don't like this quite as much as my Tinkerer build, but this works too, and a nice surprise. Works.

Cost 775

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5c5 5c5 5c5 5c5 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 5c7 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 7gu 7gu 7gu 7gu 7gu 7n2 7n2 7n2 7n2 8pn

Spoiler for High CC water/air:

Slow and steady damage with massive CC.

Cost 780

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5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i9 5i9 5id 5id 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5oh 5oh 5oh 5ol 5on 5on 5on 5on 7gt 7gt 7gt 7gt 7h3 7h3 7n5 8pr

Spoiler for Speed Poison:

Soldiers could do it with fewer upped poisons. Could possibly be tweaked, or inverted for tinkerer.

Cost 745

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52o 52o 5i5 5i5 5i5 5i5 5i5 5i5 5ib 5ib 5ib 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 5jm 718 718 718 718 71a 71a 7gn 7gn 7gn 8pk

Spoiler for Patient RoL + squids, with sanctuary, aether mark and Silence splash.:

We probs won't use this, but i like it. Healing once you have squids out is great, and silences get you around dims, Dials ad other nasty things. Sanc good for denial. Needs Lieutennant for RoLs

Cost 745

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5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5i4 5ib 5ib 5j2 5j2 5j2 5j2 5li 5lm 5lm 5lm 5lm 624 624 7gr 7gr 7gr 7jp 7jp 7jp 7jp 7jp 7jp 8pu

Spoiler for Swallow:

Never built swallow in 50% rules before, should be looked over.

Cost 1590

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55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 56i 56i 56i 5i4 5i4 5ia 5ia 5ig 5ig 5j2 5j2 5j2 5j2 5jm 5jm 74b 74b 74b 74b 7gk 7gr 7gr 8pp

Spoiler for Mono Support:

Spoiler for Mono With Air Mark for Toads:

Would usually splash Air cards, but this is mainly support deck.

Cost 505

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Spoiler for Mono With Earth Mark for Tridents:

Cost 650

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Spoiler for Bow / Trio Support:

Spoiler for Domin / Denial Support:

Spoiler for Stall Support:

Spoiler for Tinkerer Support:

Spoiler for Other Support:

[ddevans96]

My initial calculations were flawed - when talking about the support cards from last war, I considered a deck as 30-40 cards. In reality, since pillars/pends aren't counted, it's considerably less. This gives us even more room - as such, I'm going to simply add two wild-cards to the deck layout, for a total of 12 decks.

Also keep in mind we don't have just those 12 decks from the layout, the support cards are intended to provide a lot of extra options. We can put splashes into those, deck variants, mono options, etc.

At this point, we need to make a decent push to decide what decks to use. Everyone, pick 6 or so decks you most want to see in the vault - anything discussed on this thread (so please, go over the thread in some depth if you haven't yet) either as a deck image or just a name or concept, and if you want to bring up a concept that hasn't been discussed yet, you can do that too. Anything with a general consensus, we'll tweak and then lock into the vault, and then decide between the rest.

[JonathanCrazyJ]

In reply to dd's post, my top 6 (excluding grabbow which is obviously in):

-Wardens (with pulvies in support cards so Shipwrecker is an option)
-Steam Machines (our most complete standard Domin)
-Patient Vamps (devourers in support cards so Patient devs in an option)
-I think Water/Air stall is necessary because it's our only stall with pseudo PC against weapons (bolt-shock)
-Nymphcord, but we should do a massive amount of tweaking and testing with pillar/pend and nymph tear/crawler balance. This testing can be done after vault building however, as the main off element components of discords and SoFo will stay pretty standard I imagine.
-The adrennastave/puffers deck in my last post. It also means we'll have the components of the tinkerer Adrennastaff deck I posted earlier.

With regards to decks not yet mentioned, i do think we should pack 4 RT and 3 Eternities in our support cards for something like this:

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[Basman-1453]

(I happened to wake up by 0200 and took some supper. As per my activity times in the Hub, do not assume that I'm regularly active at these timeframe.)

My top six, aside of the Grabbow, would be ...
-) Serpentine (probably with an additional tech into Enchant Artifact if we can afford it)
-) Shipwrecker
-) Water/Air stall (got close calls with Flooding Antimatter, though :/)
-) Steam Machines (got close calls with Patient Vampires/Devourers, though :/)
-) AdrenaPuffer
-) Eagle-Eyed Toad

[ddevans96]

Alright. We'll start with these:

~ Grabbow [Grabbow]
~ SoP Wardens [Domin A] (with Pulvies in support for Shipwrecker)
~ Air stall [Stall A]
~ Steammie domin [Domin B]
~ Adrenapuffers [Wild Card A] (with Staves in support for Tinkerer Adrenastaves)

They need refined but it's a start. We'll see what the others say in the meantime. I'll be picking my 6 decks last, to try to fill out the vault, unless we get really stretched for time (only 48 hours left as of initially writing this post).

EDIT: Per Esp and Rulac's posts, also:
~ Serpentine [Denial]
~ Nymphcord [Utility Trio] (with Otyughs in support for Swallow)
~ SoP Vamps [Wild Card B] (with Devourers in support for SoP Devs)
~ Speed Poison [Wild Card C]

This leaves three decks - another stall and two wild cards, and just Spiel to vote. I'll give him some time to fill in the holes, otherwise I'll choose the last three decks myself.

EDIT: Spiel's vote adds these:
~Toadmare [Wild Card D]
~Air Domin [Wild Card E]
~Sanc Stall [Stall B] (I'll add this, and try to put flooding/AM in support)

[Espithel]

I'd definitely keep nymphcord, as it allows us to use Tempest (Entropy/Water NT rush) and some form of swallow if need be. That's three decks from just one. It also shouldn't be too hard to mod so we can make it into the water/entropy stall in a pinch.

I'm struggling between toadmare and patient devourers, so I'd say if we can find a way to make both, that would be good. If not, Patient devs. I didn't mention this, but flooding + Darkness nymph + water nymph is a combo that can be considered if we're in a pinch, as well as NTLA should we be in a pinch. Hurray for multidecking!

Serpentine is a deck I would pick out of the three earth/water duos should we only have to pick one.

I would prefer a fire/water stall over steam machines, but I think PC will be an issue.

Speed poison is pretty much a given, and I can't really think of a sixth.

So speed poison, steam machines, Serpentine, Patient Devs, Nymphcord, one more

[RulacMage11]

1.) Speed Poison
2.) Patient Devs
3.) Water/Light Stall or Water/Entro stall
4.) Toadmare
5.) Steamies
6.) That Water/Time deck Jcj posted looks nice :3

Didn't mention Grabbow because that's a given.

[ddevans96]

I've factored Espi and Rulac's votes into the deck layout. 9/12 covered with the second stall and two wild cards left. This just leaves Spiel to vote - I'll give him roughly 12 hours before making the call myself.

In the meantime, we need to be discussing cards not in those decks to consider. From suggestions made during voting:
~ Pulvies
~ Devs
~ Otyughs

We should also strongly consider the following (in no particular order):
~ extra copies of all water cards (essential)
~ Death/Darkness/Air/Aether domin cards (if not voted in by Spiel/me)
~ Lightning+Silence/Reverse Time/Earthquake for splashing
~ Reflective Shield (great against aether)
~ Antimatter (if not voted in)
~ mods for Grabbow/other vital decks
~ Dials (for poisonbow, and for light stall if voted in by Spiel/me)
~ backups to other decks

Anything missing on that list you'd like to discuss, post it.

[Spielkind]

sry for being late  8)

1. Toadmare
2. Steamies
3. Grabbow
4. Serpentine
5. Eagle-Eyed Toad
6. Chrysaora Dials

[JonathanCrazyJ]

I think this is close to optomised grabbow. Nothing worse than having grabboids in hand when you don't have a nova to evolve them. I also think one shield is a good idea, but Fog means we can't use the infect from our toads most of the time, so have one ice shield, but could easily go for another toad. I really think as we have water to use, it would be silly not to have one Forest Spirit.

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