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Offline TheonlyrealBeef

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Re: What will be different in War #3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16121.msg206611#msg206611
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2010, 08:02:53 am »
These improvements sound good, I don't want to be too optimistic since that can only lead to false hope.

With the talk of rookies I want to say not all rookies are that bad, being part of the auction might be a good option (0 card price or something to make up for the rookie fact), with clear emphasis on the optional part (so they'd become a full member rather than a slacker "job").

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Re: What will be different in War #3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16121.msg206617#msg206617
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2010, 08:16:30 am »
I think simply requiring the war to be the first tournament for the rookie would bring new players into Elements PVP while giving generals a little more flexibility for choosing one. I think for War #2, all current rookies would have satisfied this requirement, as well as people like me, who are only trivially more valuable (fire's rookie has easily contributed as much as I have). If the point of the rookie position is to give unknown people a chance to participate, I don't think they necessarily have to be brand new to Elements, just brand new to the PVP scene.
so in theory someone who has won a weekly tournament or two shouldnt be allowed to be considered a Rookie?
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Offline GG

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Re: What will be different in War #3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16121.msg206746#msg206746
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2010, 01:22:42 pm »
SG disappears for a week, then comes up with all these brilliant ideas. Awesome.
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Malduk

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Re: What will be different in War #3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16121.msg206750#msg206750
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2010, 01:32:07 pm »
- Auction will see a small change. Either we cap the bidding to 24 cards (multiple Generals can bid 24 from which the player chooses), or we have unlimited bidding and remove the option of player choosing for him or herself.
I'm not sure why the changes here? Sure, it may not be the smartest idea to overbid on the players, and sure it may not be the smartest call from players themselves to induce higher bidding on himself, but overall, thats the burden of the teams that go into such high bidding. System itself looks fine to me. Am I missing something?

I would like to propose other change for auction though: let the bidding on players end early. Ie, if player gets bids in the first 2 days, but then goes without the interest for the next couple of days, mark him sold before the deadline. It would encourage active bidding instead of waiting for the last 24 hours, and early bought players could help masters in finding/bidding on other players.


- Rookies
I considered rookie restrictions too... restrictive even before the war started. IMO, its a great thing to try to involve less experienced players in the war, but dedication is a must in an event that lasts so long. I would support any system that will allow teams to find less experienced/less known, but dedicated player to the team. Trying to find "fresh accounts" is a huge gamble; its not worth it.


- Revised Event Cards will be added to the event.
Looking forward to this.


- Number of players fighting during a round is determined by team Vault size divided by 36. This means that for each 36 cards the team has, they have to send one player on to the battlefield. This was 30 during War #1 and #2. Problem with using 30 is that it might force teams to use 30 card decks, and at the same time revealing their entire Vault to others.
This definitely needs to be discussed and solved. Being forced to field suicide/illegal decks is the biggest "flaw" of the war rules in my opinion. Not being able to surprise your opponent is another issue.
I would like a set of rules that are not as restrictive on teams. Vault/36 is a step in that direction, though I'd personally prefer looking at number of cards from your base element (as we had in War#1, we never looked at the entire Vault size), or maybe even Vault/40. I'd imagine stalling elements like :light would appreciate that. Not being able to go for deckout strat due to the rule is bad rule IMO.



- Team member roles will be evaluated and most likely tweaked a bit. One role will be removed if teams are made smaller.
I always considered Roles to be... optional (apart from those that have special rules built around them aka general, lieutenant and sub). I dont see anything wrong with giving for example Deckbuilder, Sub, Duel organizer, Strategist role assigned to a single player, and call some players simply "Soldiers", as long the important topics for warmasters are being made. I say leave the team organization to teams themselves.


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Re: What will be different in War #3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16121.msg206765#msg206765
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2010, 02:05:30 pm »
SG disappears for a week, then comes up with all these brilliant ideas. Awesome.
I got sick again. Food poisoning. One good thing about my home country is high level of restaurant hygiene. In my own country I have never had a food poisoning. I come to Asia, and I get poisoned twice almost back to back.

- Auction will see a small change. Either we cap the bidding to 24 cards (multiple Generals can bid 24 from which the player chooses), or we have unlimited bidding and remove the option of player choosing for him or herself.
I'm not sure why the changes here? Sure, it may not be the smartest idea to overbid on the players, and sure it may not be the smartest call from players themselves to induce higher bidding on himself, but overall, thats the burden of the teams that go into such high bidding. System itself looks fine to me. Am I missing something?

I would like to propose other change for auction though: let the bidding on players end early. Ie, if player gets bids in the first 2 days, but then goes without the interest for the next couple of days, mark him sold before the deadline. It would encourage active bidding instead of waiting for the last 24 hours, and early bought players could help masters in finding/bidding on other players.


- Number of players fighting during a round is determined by team Vault size divided by 36. This means that for each 36 cards the team has, they have to send one player on to the battlefield. This was 30 during War #1 and #2. Problem with using 30 is that it might force teams to use 30 card decks, and at the same time revealing their entire Vault to others.
This definitely needs to be discussed and solved. Being forced to field suicide/illegal decks is the biggest "flaw" of the war rules in my opinion. Not being able to surprise your opponent is another issue.
I would like a set of rules that are not as restrictive on teams. Vault/36 is a step in that direction, though I'd personally prefer looking at number of cards from your base element (as we had in War#1, we never looked at the entire Vault size), or maybe even Vault/40. I'd imagine stalling elements like :light would appreciate that. Not being able to go for deckout strat due to the rule is bad rule IMO.



- Team member roles will be evaluated and most likely tweaked a bit. One role will be removed if teams are made smaller.
I always considered Roles to be... optional (apart from those that have special rules built around them aka general, lieutenant and sub). I dont see anything wrong with giving for example Deckbuilder, Sub, Duel organizer, Strategist role assigned to a single player, and call some players simply "Soldiers", as long the important topics for warmasters are being made. I say leave the team organization to teams themselves.
The silly part of that auction system was the fact that if you wanted a specific General to buy you for 24 cards, you had to PM him in advance, and then wait with your finger on the button, hoping that no other General has time to raise. Minimum amount of things happening should always be 24 hours. This way timezones have no affect.

Having individual auction clocks for each player has been suggested many times before. I don't like it because it's a huge task for the organizers. You have to pretty much watch the situation like a hawk for the whole duration of the auction.

About forcing to field suicide/illegal decks.. this is something that I don't fully understand. Is there an example of a situation where a team did all the right decisions, but were forced to build suicide decks nevertheless? I seriously doubt that. My guess is that these teams made bad decisions which led to their Vault becoming a mess, which lead to them having to use suicide decks. And if I'm correct, it's not really an issue with the rules. It's an issue with teams making poor vault building/discarding/salvaging decisions. And I don't think we need to change the rules because of poor those decisions. There should be a consequences for making mistakes, not some easy mode rules that gave you a way out no matter how bad you fail.

About the roles.. like I've said before, teams can be use their own methods if they want, but I think it's important to have some kind of default system for those teams that have no system at all and don't really have the skills and/or interest to make one. I can already see that secret forum sections are much better organized this time because we had those roles. It's very different from War #1 where many players were not given any specific roles, so they did nothing.

Malduk

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Re: What will be different in War #3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16121.msg206799#msg206799
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2010, 03:19:45 pm »
The silly part of that auction system was the fact that if you wanted a specific General to buy you for 24 cards, you had to PM him in advance, and then wait with your finger on the button, hoping that no other General has time to raise. Minimum amount of things happening should always be 24 hours. This way timezones have no affect.
Ah, true, timezones can be a pain there. Another solution (though very similar to making 24 the max bid), would be to allow player to accept 24 card bid, even after some other general made a higher bid after that. That way, first general that makes the bid has the advantage of bidding first, and if the player decides to not take his bid, it forces other masters to pay higher than that.


Having individual auction clocks for each player has been suggested many times before. I don't like it because it's a huge task for the organizers. You have to pretty much watch the situation like a hawk for the whole duration of the auction.
Time marks of posts solve that problem really. I assure you, generals (and especially players) keep a close eye on their bids. If given timeframe passes, generals (and/or player in question) will most definitely claim the buyout, making the job of warmaster much easier. All WM has to do is to confirm time stamps of posts after general/player claims the buyout.
I wouldnt even be surprised if some community generated thread comes up listing players with soon to expire deadlines (not that thread like that would be crucial anyway).
Saying that, current system works of course. Its just that its not very... exciting.


About forcing to field suicide/illegal decks.. this is something that I don't fully understand. Is there an example of a situation where a team did all the right decisions, but were forced to build suicide decks nevertheless? I seriously doubt that. My guess is that these teams made bad decisions which led to their Vault becoming a mess, which lead to them having to use suicide decks. And if I'm correct, it's not really an issue with the rules. It's an issue with teams making poor vault building/discarding/salvaging decisions. And I don't think we need to change the rules because of poor those decisions. There should be a consequences for making mistakes, not some easy mode rules that gave you a way out no matter how bad you fail.

Good decisions can turn to be bad ones. For example, keeping or discarding stuff like Reflective shields, depends entirely on your future, completely luck based, draws of opponents. Due to salvage/discard mechanics, your Vault WILL become a mess at one point, unless you're winning huge majority of your matches, and never get to experience a situation where you field full Vault. And everyone WILL come to that point sooner or later.
In example, :death is a 3rd team at the moment, I think we're doing a great job. However, even if we keep winning with 6-3 results, our Vault will become a mess at one point, just like in first war.
In a more concrete example, since you can look at any vault, pick a team and look at their card count of an element they can duo with. Through salvages, they can get more cards from that element, giving them more options in building that duo (always a good thing). However, when they lose the deck, that in its optimal build had say 80% of those cards, other 20% have a good chance to become useless cards, mostly due to the fact that in shrinking vault, they cannot afford to take 24 of main element cards, and 6 splash cards. And that happens to couple of element simultaneously.
It seems complicated when talking like this, but its a very common scenario in the war.
Then you get couple of useless cards here, couple of useless cards there, and you dont get to convert them all to mono as every round brings more useless cards from salvages.

I'm not trying to make things easier for those that make poor decisions; I spend crapload of time thinking about salvages/discards and the state of our Vault, and I want that to count. But regardless, suicide decks are detrimental to the event. I dont want to see some elements giving free wins to my opponents, just like I dont want to give free wins to anyone myself. I'd rather give teams some more tactical working space than have this scenario.


About the roles.. like I've said before, teams can be use their own methods if they want, but I think it's important to have some kind of default system for those teams that have no system at all and don't really have the skills and/or interest to make one. I can already see that secret forum sections are much better organized this time because we had those roles. It's very different from War #1 where many players were not given any specific roles, so they did nothing.
Well, in defense of the first war, it was the first one :) And I understand what you're saying, and completely agree that suggesting default roles is a good thing, as long its not "you MUST do it this way".

Kael Hate

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Re: What will be different in War #3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16121.msg206801#msg206801
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2010, 03:20:40 pm »
- Revised Event Cards will be added to the event.
Cool, I like the idea of event cards as long as they are not element sensitive.


- Number of players fighting during a round is determined by team Vault size divided by 36. This means that for each 36 cards the team has, they have to send one player on to the battlefield. This was 30 during War #1 and #2. Problem with using 30 is that it might force teams to use 30 card decks, and at the same time revealing their entire Vault to others.
Nice start but can we start the base vault at 60 tho to give a leeway for options.

0-29 - 0 Eliminated
30-60 - 1 Player
61-96 - 2 Players
97-132 - 3 Players
133-164 - 4 Players
165-200 - 5 Players
and so on.

That means the last player can build a deck up to 60 cards and if not the surplus is spread between the team as leeway. That or bring the value up to 45.
The other option would be to have the value based on in-elemnt cards only since they effect the decks that can be built.







The Only other thing I'd like but is very hard to do is define teams by the mark they use, not the cards in the vault. As the game text says "The Player is an Elemental of his mark" yet all sorts of marks are thrown around. Underworld would be able to declare their mark  at the bidding stage and have to use that through to the end of the war.




Missed something, the option to discard cards voluntarily to improve the quality of the teams stock.
To make this easy it could be done during the conversion phase so there is no waiting but as its just another penalty like all the penalties gathered between rounds it shouldn't be hard to manage.

Kael Hate

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Re: What will be different in War #3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16121.msg206806#msg206806
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2010, 03:29:21 pm »
About forcing to field suicide/illegal decks.. this is something that I don't fully understand. Is there an example of a situation where a team did all the right decisions, but were forced to build suicide decks nevertheless? I seriously doubt that. My guess is that these teams made bad decisions which led to their Vault becoming a mess, which lead to them having to use suicide decks. And if I'm correct, it's not really an issue with the rules. It's an issue with teams making poor vault building/discarding/salvaging decisions. And I don't think we need to change the rules because of poor those decisions. There should be a consequences for making mistakes, not some easy mode rules that gave you a way out no matter how bad you fail.
We started with more than 1/3rd pillars/pendulums and more than 2/3rds Darkness cards total. Converted every round and salvaged dark cards every round. But a bad round costing us more than 2/3rds dark stock puts us well below an effective working limit. Bad Luck > Bad descisions

Offline Dragoon

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Re: What will be different in War #3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16121.msg206813#msg206813
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2010, 03:34:17 pm »
Quote
About forcing to field suicide/illegal decks.. this is something that I don't fully understand. Is there an example of a situation where a team did all the right decisions, but were forced to build suicide decks nevertheless? I seriously doubt that. My guess is that these teams made bad decisions which led to their Vault becoming a mess, which lead to them having to use suicide decks. And if I'm correct, it's not really an issue with the rules. It's an issue with teams making poor vault building/discarding/salvaging decisions. And I don't think we need to change the rules because of poor those decisions. There should be a consequences for making mistakes, not some easy mode rules that gave you a way out no matter how bad you fail.
The thing is, I'm not sure it's necessarily bad decision making.  When we make these decisions, we're taking risks.  Of course we hope we get the payoff, but if we don't, we know we're going to be in the hole even more.

For instance, Time had to make a decision during a couple rounds (particularly R3&4)—discard more non-pillar/pendulum cards and make weaker decks this round, but have more pillars for the following rounds; or discard more pillar/pendulum cards and have more options and stronger decks this round, but have even fewer pillars the following round if we lost too many battles.

Option 1 is basically ceding defeat, setting yourself up to lose, and trying to last as long as possible.  Option 2 gives you a chance to win big, but if you don't, it hastens you to your death even faster.  Sure we could've saved more pillars last round so that we can use them this round.  But we're just delaying the inevitable that way.

Instead, we opted to build the best decks possible maximizing every single card we had available.  If we win, no big deal making decks for the next round because we get to keep all our pillars/pendulums.  If we lose, then again, we have to decide whether to try to save non-pillar cards to make better decks for a few players and suicides for others, or we can save pillar cards and make watered down decks for everybody.  I think the obvious choice is to go with a few good decks and however many suicides as a necessary evil.

Offline hainkarga

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Re: What will be different in War #3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16121.msg206835#msg206835
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2010, 03:46:01 pm »
- Underworld PvP tournament will be fought to the bitter end (instead of stopping when we have 8 players left). Winner of the tournament will get a "King of the Underworld" award icon and will have the power to either become the Team Underworld General, or appoint one. Top-8 players will form Team Underworld like before.
If somehow possible, i'm still up for this one just for the icon :)
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Ryan666

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Re: What will be different in War #3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16121.msg206858#msg206858
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2010, 04:03:46 pm »
I think it should be no more duel organizer..

I am so excited for war #3 to start..

When exactly does it start?

Memorystick

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Re: What will be different in War #3 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16121.msg206884#msg206884
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2010, 04:42:22 pm »
I think it should be no more duel organizer..

I am so excited for war #3 to start..

When exactly does it start?
Finish War 2, then Trials, then War 3. At least 4-6 months, I think.

 

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