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What will be different in War #2? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8325.msg95047#msg95047
« on: June 18, 2010, 01:54:52 pm »
What will be different in War #2?

1. Players will be listed
Before the event starts, Masters will list their team members from 1 to 6. For example like this:

1. John (Master)
2. Bill
3. Jack
4. Susan
5. Gary
6. Max

If a team is able to build only 5 legal decks, the last player on the list will skip the next turn. If there are only 4 legal decks, last two players will skip the round. If there are enough cards for only one deck, Master will do the fighting.

This way we can get rid of the unnecessary step of teams having to decide who fights. With a pre-determined list, organizers can easily see who will skip the round.

This also fixes the seeding problem we have right now.


2. Discarding
Rules regarding discarding will change. Here's the most recent version:

ROUND 1: discard 6, salvage 6
ROUND 2: discard 12, salvage 6
ROUND 3: discard 18, salvage 6
ROUND 4: discard 24, salvage 6
ROUND 5: discard 30, salvage 6
ROUND 6: discard 30, salvage 6
ROUND 7: discard 30, salvage 6
etc.


3. Converting cards
During deckbuilding, besides discarding and salvaging, you can now also convert cards. This means that you can replace any card in your Vault with a Pillar of your element. This will hopefully fix some Vault problems and limit the need to build suicide decks. *

*this idea was influenced by someone, I forgot who. I would guess it was Troh you suggested something similar but feel free to correct me.


4. Byes

If there are uneven number of players fighting during a round, the team in last place (least amount of cards in the Vault) gets a bye. If that team already had a bye during the previous turn, the 2nd to last team gets a bye instead.

Malduk

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Re: What will be different in War #2? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8325.msg95076#msg95076
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2010, 02:37:29 pm »
Question/Suggestion: Why not make it on round basis, so if someone will not be available during those days (vacations, work etc), you can put him on the last spot. And why not include it in this war too?

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Re: What will be different in War #2? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8325.msg95105#msg95105
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2010, 03:52:48 pm »
Question/Suggestion: Why not make it on round basis, so if someone will not be available during those days (vacations, work etc), you can put him on the last spot. And why not include it in this war too?
cos you can choose playes with this pretext,but you lie (you actually choose on who's your enemy)

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Re: What will be different in War #2? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8325.msg95117#msg95117
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2010, 04:13:39 pm »
Just a small qualm on my part, life had a REALLY difficult strength of season.

This was largely because we had a double header against the team in first place in round one, and then a double header against team number two in round two.

It was no fun.

Seeing as there are 11 other elements, the amount of repetition in our opponents wasn't necessary.

For that reason I propose this rotation:
 :earth :darkness :air :aether :water :death :gravity :time :life :light :entropy :fire

I tried to put elements with similar play styles as far away from each other as possible, although the matchups weren't perfect.
(Earth == Gravity; Darkness == Time; Air == Life; Aether == Light; Water == Entropy; Death == Fire)

To use this rotation, simply find your element on the sliding scale.  One player fights the opponent one to your right, so anyone from team life would fight light.  Another player would fight the next opponent to the right, or entropy, and so on until the third player gets his fight.  The remaining three fights would be determined by who challenged you, E.G, gravity death and time.  Then, next round, the three elements you fight slide three to the right.  Of course, when your three select your own element, you don't fight yourself, you skip it and choose the next element.  In this way you rarely fight one element two rounds in a row, and the elements you do fight change slowly.  If an element is eliminated, simply skip it on the rotation.  This system tends to break when elements have under six fighters, but I don't really understand how that works yet.  (My best idea would be to have player one fight two people if necessary, maybe even three, so that four people still fight six matches.  If you lose one, you lose the deck, but keep the salvage.  This is close to what a real war would be like)

Anyway, the new cycle aside, another change I found a solution to is the vaults.

Instead of getting a set amount of money, you get a set amount of electrum.  Each element gets it's own elements user, called "LifeWarPlayer" or something, with a username and password.  Then, that player purchases the cards for his deck.  This solution has a problem, as elements would be unable to get rares, but I suppose you could trade in electrum to get a rare code (or something).  That number could probably be based on the cards cost in the trainer.
The point is, you'd pay electrum to buy your fighters, and to buy your cards.  Instead of putting a limit on the number of each card you can buy, the limit comes from the price of each card.  In theory, death could pack a ridiculous amount of skeletons, but some cards like dragons would be way more expensive.   This might balance out the more powerful cards.  (Miracle costs 240 in the trainer, and seeing 18 of those wouldn't be so obnoxious anymore).

Meanwhile, once you've chosen your cards, you literally buy them.  And those cards make up your deck.  Then, at the end of every round, you sell the cards in your deck.  You still get to keep the money gained from selling the cards, but that money can't rebuy your deck.  And you sell EVERY card, not just 30.  In fact, you can sell whatever cards you want, and rebuy them, at a loss to you.  This would prevent elements from tracking the cards in your vault excessively, and make it less of a game of organization and espionage than a game of making better decks.

Meanwhile, the winning team would get a small bonus electrum code, perhaps based upon the difficulty of beating the other team, perhaps not.  The only way this can go wrong is if players grind using the vault account.  This can be prevented easily by logging on to it, looking at the win/loss record, and seeing if extra fights were fought.  The win/loss record would also help the warmaster keep track of everything.

When battle time comes, the players log on to their war account, and fight the other war account.

Masters would still have to double check that the decks don't double up on card use, but other than that, the solution makes finding the games in the spectator easier, keeping track of the wins/losses easier, having the cards you need easier, tracking the cards in other's vaults harder, and it balances out the more expensive cards.  It might make the war a bit longer, but it doesn't overpenalize decks for losing or being smaller.  (A 40 card deck has 10 cards it will never lose.  A 30 card deck loses everything equally.  Playing and losing with a 40 card deck was FAR more advantageous) Instead, you'd lose 32% of your electrum, perhaps a number that's a bit big, but a number that gives losers a chance for a comeback.

These solve several of the most annoying things about the war, and I think they at least be tried out in a future war, even if not implemented permanently.

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Re: What will be different in War #2? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8325.msg95145#msg95145
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2010, 05:06:09 pm »
Just a small qualm on my part, life had a REALLY difficult strength of season.

This was largely because we had a double header against the team in first place in round one, and then a double header against team number two in round two.

It was no fun.

Seeing as there are 11 other elements, the amount of repetition in our opponents wasn't necessary.

For that reason I propose this rotation:
 :earth :darkness :air :aether :water :death :gravity :time :life :light :entropy :fire

I tried to put elements with similar play styles as far away from each other as possible, although the matchups weren't perfect.
(Earth == Gravity; Darkness == Time; Air == Life; Aether == Light; Water == Entropy; Death == Fire)

To use this rotation, simply find your element on the sliding scale.  Player one fights the opponent one to your right, so the master of life would fight light.  Player two would fight the next opponent to the right, or entropy, all the way until play six fought air.  Then, next round, player one would fight aether.  Remember to skip your own element when using this rotation.  Player six doesn't fight life again, he fights light again.  In this way you only ever fight one element two rounds in a row, and the elements you do fight change slowly.  If an element is eliminated, simply skip it on the rotation.  This system tends to break when elements have under six fighters, but I don't really understand how that works yet.  (My best idea would be to have player one fight two people if necessary, maybe even three, so that four people still fight six matches.  If you lose one, you lose the deck, but keep the salvage.  This is close to what a real war would be like)

Anyway, the new cycle aside, another change I found a solution to is the vaults.

Instead of getting a set amount of money, you get a set amount of electrum.  Each element gets it's own elements user, called "LifeWarPlayer" or something, with a username and password.  Then, that player purchases the cards for his deck.  This solution has a problem, as elements would be unable to get rares, but I suppose you could trade in electrum to get a rare code (or something).  That number could probably be based on the cards cost in the trainer.
The point is, you'd pay electrum to buy your fighters, and to buy your cards.  Instead of putting a limit on the number of each card you can buy, the limit comes from the price of each card.  In theory, death could pack a ridiculous amount of skeletons, but some cards like dragons would be way more expensive.   This might balance out the more powerful cards.  (Miracle costs 240 in the trainer, and seeing 18 of those wouldn't be so obnoxious anymore).

Meanwhile, once you've chosen your cards, you literally buy them.  And those cards make up your deck.  Then, at the end of every round, you sell the cards in your deck.  You still get to keep the money gained from selling the cards, but that money can't rebuy your deck.  And you sell EVERY card, not just 30.  In fact, you can sell whatever cards you want, and rebuy them, at a loss to you.  This would prevent elements from tracking the cards in your vault excessively, and make it less of a game of organization and espionage than a game of making better decks.

Meanwhile, the winning team would get a small bonus electrum code, perhaps based upon the difficulty of beating the other team, perhaps not.  The only way this can go wrong is if players grind using the vault account.  This can be prevented easily by logging on to it, looking at the win/loss record, and seeing if extra fights were fought.  The win/loss record would also help the warmaster keep track of everything.

When battle time comes, the players log on to their war account, and fight the other war account.

Masters would still have to double check that the decks don't double up on card use, but other than that, the solution makes finding the games in the spectator easier, keeping track of the wins/losses easier, having the cards you need easier, tracking the cards in other's vaults harder, and it balances out the more expensive cards.  It might make the war a bit longer, but it doesn't overpenalize decks for losing or being smaller.  (A 40 card deck has 10 cards it will never lose.  A 30 card deck loses everything equally.  Playing and losing with a 40 card deck was FAR more advantageous) Instead, you'd lose 32% of your electrum, perhaps a number that's a bit big, but a number that gives losers a chance for a comeback.

These solve several of the most annoying things about the war, and I think they at least be tried out in a future war, even if not implemented permanently.
This would be way to complicated, would require Zanz to do extra work, and seems like a lot of coding for... nothing. Life wouldn't have won this anyways, if they couldn't beat T2 and only the best win. No 2nd place. Just winners and losers. Also, your system would prevent cool Master vs Master fights.
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Re: What will be different in War #2? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8325.msg95207#msg95207
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2010, 06:28:37 pm »
His system doesn't really work anyway. You can't use it on every team or the games won't match up. You'd have to only use it on six, but how do you decide who to use it on?

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Re: What will be different in War #2? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8325.msg95264#msg95264
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2010, 07:49:38 pm »
Noticed that as I was walking out the door Dema, nice catch.  Fix'd the post.

This would be way to complicated, would require Zanz to do extra work, and seems like a lot of coding for... nothing. Life wouldn't have won this anyways, if they couldn't beat T2 and only the best win. No 2nd place. Just winners and losers. Also, your system would prevent cool Master vs Master fights.
Yea of course, that's why I'm doing this.  I'm mad because life lost and want to throw the whole war in their favor.

My system would NOT prevent master vs. master stuff, as it isn't garunteed which player would fight which element.  So if someone like light were worried about a match against fire, they could send their master against fire.  And if fire were equally worried about light, the we have a master vs. master conflict right there.

Would it really require zanz to do extra work?  It's only two additional codes.  One to start your account with the right amount of money, and one you get for winning a match.

And as far as your quip about life would have lost anyway, might I point you arrogant braggart that light only one because A) life was out of cards to out deck you, and B) My internet was down and Amesjay was a no show.  Where did those cards go?  The number one team beat them.  Where did Amesjay go?  Your guess is as good as mine.  Bragging that your element defeated life in battle is like saying you swam the english channel because one camera was too low-tech to zoom in and the other one couldn't see you.

So to refute your arguments in order: it isn't a lot of work for zanz, and it would allow the concept of war to be a fun massive way of playing.  Perhaps life wouldn't have won, but that's not the point of this thread, and instead you should be thankful I at least called your element number 2.  And finally, you are completely incorrect, as master fights could still, and probably would, happen with my system, and the system could be tweaked easily.

Although, seeing as you don't like it, do you have any alternatives?

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Re: What will be different in War #2? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8325.msg95297#msg95297
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2010, 08:30:40 pm »
Noticed that as I was walking out the door Dema, nice catch.  Fix'd the post.

This would be way to complicated, would require Zanz to do extra work, and seems like a lot of coding for... nothing. Life wouldn't have won this anyways, if they couldn't beat T2 and only the best win. No 2nd place. Just winners and losers. Also, your system would prevent cool Master vs Master fights.
Yea of course, that's why I'm doing this.  I'm mad because life lost and want to throw the whole war in their favor.

My system would NOT prevent master vs. master stuff, as it isn't garunteed which player would fight which element.  So if someone like light were worried about a match against fire, they could send their master against fire.  And if fire were equally worried about light, the we have a master vs. master conflict right there.

Would it really require zanz to do extra work?  It's only two additional codes.  One to start your account with the right amount of money, and one you get for winning a match.

And as far as your quip about life would have lost anyway, might I point you arrogant braggart that light only one because A) life was out of cards to out deck you, and B) My internet was down and Amesjay was a no show.  Where did those cards go?  The number one team beat them.  Where did Amesjay go?  Your guess is as good as mine.  Bragging that your element defeated life in battle is like saying you swam the english channel because one camera was too low-tech to zoom in and the other one couldn't see you.

So to refute your arguments in order: it isn't a lot of work for zanz, and it would allow the concept of war to be a fun massive way of playing.  Perhaps life wouldn't have won, but that's not the point of this thread, and instead you should be thankful I at least called your element number 2.  And finally, you are completely incorrect, as master fights could still, and probably would, happen with my system, and the system could be tweaked easily.

Although, seeing as you don't like it, do you have any alternatives?
I meant that Life would've lost the War as a whole anyways, not the fights vs Masters

Err, what's wrong with the current random system? I see you're pissed that you were killed by Earth, first round , but it really wasn't only that why Life lost. First, they lost to almost everybody, not just Earth. Secondly, it really doesn't matter who gets second place, so whether you get killed by them early or late, it's the same thing. ALSO, it seems like you refuse to accept you lost vs Light.

Now, about your points as to why Light beat Life:

A)not enough cards. This is actually totally your fault.

B)Bad connection, so you couldn't sub: OK, this is not your fault, but nobody in your team was active at that time, while both me and Dragoon were in chat, so... Also, the fact that Amesjay was a no-show it was still your team's fault.

OK, I'm not good at all about coding, so I'm not gonna argue on that. And the part where you explained your system it sounded like it was preset who was gonna fight who, maybe your bad wording, or maybe my bad reading. ANYWAYS. I don't see random fighting so bad...
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Re: What will be different in War #2? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8325.msg95304#msg95304
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2010, 08:43:40 pm »
And I meant that this entire thread is about entirely different subject matter.
What's wrong with the current random system is that elements like darkness never got to fight earth.  We don't want truly random, we want everyone to fight everyone equally.  I see you refuse to believe I would make a post about anything than life's loss, but as I'm stepping down from the position, I couldn't give a rats ass who wins next war.  Secondly, I still don't care about the standings.  That's not what the post was about.  ALSO, it seems you weren't done bragging that light smashed us into a pulp.

Now, about your points as to why Light beat life

A) This is completely unnecessary to the thread.
B) These are completely redundant, both in your case and in mine.

I'm not all that good a coding either, but it seemed simple enough.  I'm going to guess it was bad reading on your part, given the above discrepancy on what the hell the post was actually about, and it's subject matter in general.  I just think random fighting is bad because it gave giant advantages to some elements and humongous disadvantages to others.  If there's a system that's better, why not implement it?

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Re: What will be different in War #2? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8325.msg95317#msg95317
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2010, 08:53:41 pm »
A'ight.

Off-topic discussion aside. If we could make some sort of a map it would be cool. If not, IMO, random is still better. It's less tidy, just like War, and also more fun. Your way, you can just make decks for a loooong time. This way, unexpected stuff always happen, like an easy round, or a terrible round. In the end a good team should manage to handle it.

So, in general, I just don't like how your system is very predictable. Also, how do you buy warriors? And how could that system stop a Master playing alone for all his team?
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Re: What will be different in War #2? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8325.msg95717#msg95717
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2010, 06:35:39 am »
Would non-fighting members ever be an option?
But this is only if there is more management than just vault building

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Re: What will be different in War #2? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8325.msg95744#msg95744
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2010, 08:21:39 am »
I agree with Glitch that the matches should be assigned systematically. It doesn't have to be the way he proposed though. Assuming you have enough cards in your vault (if vaults are used) for six people to play twice, and you aren't penalized, you can play each other element once, and one element twice (11 other teams, 12 games). So no one can really say "we got screwed in our first/second round because of who we faced." Everyone faces everyone pretty much equally. If matches are assigned randomly and a team goes up against a team they are weak against several times, it would make sense that they would complain, and it's pretty justified in my opinion. Sure, it's random for everyone, but random =/= fair in this type of event.

Then again, all is fair in love and war :-p

Just an example, two teams go up against each other, say aether and water (alphabetically chosen). 70% of aether's available decks can defeat 70% of water's available decks, while the other 30% can beat 50% of water's decks (there is overlap because some decks can defeat both). On the other hand, 40% of water's decks can beat 30% of aether's decks, and the other 60% can beat 40% of aether's decks (there may be some overlap). Note, that by "can beat," I mean the decks are at least a fair fight against each other. The aether team has a huge advantage. Even more so if they must fight each other multiple times.

I just threw some numbers together, so they may not make sense logically... I think they do though.

 

anything
blarg: