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Scaredgirl

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Re: WAR - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6922.msg98603#msg98603
« Reply #108 on: June 22, 2010, 04:52:55 pm »
But there's SG saying how the sole reason for :earth dominance are their members.
Please don't misquote me. I have never said such a thing.

I only responded to ridiculous claims that :earth is winning because they are either lucky, or War rules are bad. Facts are that :earth is the most active team and they deserve to be where they are. Everyone on that team has worked hard and it shows. You don't see team :earth taking penalties or having to use replacements because half of their players have disappeared without a trace.

If :earth was the least active team with 15-0, then I would believe the conspiracy theories of this HUGE imbalance everyone is talking about.

Malduk

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Vault v.2.0.0.1 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6922.msg98638#msg98638
« Reply #109 on: June 22, 2010, 05:42:05 pm »
Vault issues have been discussed on several different places, and I didnt know where to put it, so here it is.


Let me start by problems with current Vault (as I see them).

1) Not all elements are equally affected by Vault rules. Elements that are strong in their mono form, and use other elements just as addition to tune their strategy, are not as affected by losing games like elements that rely on cards from other elements to work well.

2) Limit of a single card count in the Vault is also affecting different elements differently.
Some cards you NEED to take 5-6 of in your deck to make them worth carrying, and losing them destroys whole deck strategy (say Poison, Cremation etc), while with spells like Protect Artifact, Steal etc, you can carry 2-3 of those, lose them and still have your deck strategy.
Same goes with creatures of some elements. :earth and :life have plenty of creatures to carry and lose. Losing creatures for elements like :time is devastating.
There are also spells like Fractal. If you're not :aether, you can carry 6 of those. Chances are, you want something like 4 of those in your deck. Losing that match loses Fractal strategy for your future rounds.
You can agree or disagree with examples I provided here, but hopefully you'll understand the point I'm trying to make.

3) Discarding and Salvaging process requires 5:1 ratio to break even. Even if you change the ratio to say 3:3, you'll be salvaging cards that are worth less to you, than those you have to discard. So, even if a team manages to get break even ratio, it is still losing its deckbuilding options.

Now, all those are problems mostly because of huge loss in cards after a match. When you factor in that lots of matches were decided by a pure guessing game or simply coin toss, discarding hurts even more. Which brings me to:

4) Fun factor - it is really not fun to have to make suicide decks, or throw the match before it even starts. Throwing matches is not cool, and also counter productive to this competition that should say which element is the best (or its players, whatever).

Now, this is getting too long, so let me jump on the actual idea.


Vault v.2.0.0.1 (  ;D )


In every round, half of the players will be winners, half of the players will be losers. That is a fact. "Dont lose" doesnt work here.
So far, winners gained advantage mostly through penalties on losing teams. I suggest that instead of penalties to losers, which is detrimental to gameplay in future rounds, we instead award winners.

Say each team starts with enough cards to make 8-9, whatever decks (number of total cards should be lower than we started War 1).
For every victory, they will loot certain number of cards (6-12), thus expanding their vault and gaining new options for building their decks.
Way of keeping score will be TERRITORY COUNT.
Losers would lose 0-6 cards and part of their Territory. (I know SG said it doesnt make sense to her that in a war you lose HP instead of troups. In war you lose territory, and you're out when you lost your territory. You certainly dont make suicide armies (decks) and send them to your enemy. :) )

One another interesting idea that could be implemented here is "retreat", where after a first round, if you see you have zero chances against your opponents deck, you could choose to run away like a girl. Winning team gets all the normal spoils of the won battle, while losing team gets half of penalty. This would remove some "luck" factor in guessing game, while adding factor of skill of evaluating true strenght of your opponents deck vs yours.


That is the basic idea of vault mechanics that can be improved or built upon. Let me point out what I believe are advantages of this system over system we had in war 1:

- Most important thing: fun factor. You wont see system breakdowns after a bad start like we saw in some teams as losing matches does not penalize you in making strategies. Also, discarding is not fun, looting is.
- No suicide decks
- Comebacks are possible, making war more tense and interesting
- Removing the situations where unlucky scenario devastated your Vault, giving more room for showing deckbuilding/playing skill
- Retreat!
- Easy to implement "map" idea in the future
- Doesnt NEED "trading cards" system (making things more simple), although it CAN be implemented
- Overall much more simple way of keeping track of everything really.

Scaredgirl

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Re: WAR - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6922.msg98658#msg98658
« Reply #110 on: June 22, 2010, 06:24:51 pm »
"Suicide decks" and other Vault problems have already been fixed using #1 and #2 in here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,8325.msg103050#msg103050) (and using the possible card trading option). Unless everyone in the team is totally clueless to deckbuilding, suicide decks won't happen again.

I really don't understand why we need a system that doesn't penalize the losers. If my team goes 0-6 during round 1, should I be given a cookie for that and the ability to "start over" during round 2? Makes no sense. Losing has to be a "big deal" because that's what makes the matches exciting.

Like I've said before, I see cards as units that form an army. When the Wars starts, teams have 360 units. If team loses battles, those units get destroyed, making the army smaller. If you have a smaller army, you have less options, just like in real life.

"Discarding is not fun"? Um.. here's an idea: stop losing so you don't have to discard! :) I don't think we should design War in a way that losers don't hurt their feelings. Winning has to be a big deal, losing has to be a big deal.



Btw.. I moved your post to suggestions sticky thread where it belongs. That other thread is about discussing what will be different in the next War, this thread is about what could be different.

Offline the dictator

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Re: WAR - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6922.msg98676#msg98676
« Reply #111 on: June 22, 2010, 06:47:08 pm »
Yes, but the problem is, when losing, you are gaining a disadvantage, meaning you will lose more, meaning you will get more disadvantage, so you will lose more, etc.

In most games you get stronger when in a neat position, so there won't be a chain of losing.

And, the fact that losing CAUSES more losing, makes this war hard to play, because with a bad start, you don't have a significant change any more.
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Malduk

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Re: WAR - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6922.msg98686#msg98686
« Reply #112 on: June 22, 2010, 06:54:54 pm »
Btw.. I moved your post to suggestions sticky thread where it belongs. That other thread is about discussing what will be different in the next War, this thread is about what could be different.
Sorry, I thought those stuff there are suggestions to discuss about, not done deal, just like my suggestion.


"Suicide decks" and other Vault problems have already been fixed using #1 and #2 in here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,8325.msg103050#msg103050) (and using the possible card trading option). Unless everyone in the team is totally clueless to deckbuilding, suicide decks won't happen again.

I really don't understand why we need a system that doesn't penalize the losers. If my team goes 0-6 during round 1, should I be given a cookie for that and the ability to "start over" during round 2? Makes no sense. Losing has to be a "big deal" because that's what makes the matches exciting.

Like I've said before, I see cards as units that form an army. When the Wars starts, teams have 360 units. If team loses battles, those units get destroyed, making the army smaller. If you have a smaller army, you have less options, just like in real life.

"Discarding is not fun"? Um.. here's an idea: stop losing so you don't have to discard! :) I don't think we should design War in a way that losers don't hurt their feelings. Winning has to be a big deal, losing has to be a big deal.
With #1 and #2 there, suicide decks will happen again. Lowering discard count from 30 to 24 may prolong the war by one round, but nothing else will be different.

In real life, you dont send armies to slaughter. You also dont run out of soldiers. Making arguments about real life war to make game competition better is stupid.

Anyway, I'm not going into this discussion. I can just ask you to think about what I wrote I why I wrote it.
You may see cards as units or whatever, but if you're asking feedback, ask opinions and experiences from people that PLAYED the war, dont make conclusions from observers mode. After all, players will play the war, not observers.

When I put effort into writing this, I hoped for constructive discussion about pro and cons of systems, not "pfft dont lose".

Scaredgirl

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Re: WAR - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6922.msg98739#msg98739
« Reply #113 on: June 22, 2010, 07:53:25 pm »
Yes, but the problem is, when losing, you are gaining a disadvantage, meaning you will lose more, meaning you will get more disadvantage, so you will lose more, etc.

In most games you get stronger when in a neat position, so there won't be a chain of losing.

And, the fact that losing CAUSES more losing, makes this war hard to play, because with a bad start, you don't have a significant change any more.
Well, of course. In real life if you go to war and suffer many defeats, you will be at a disadvantage and only luck or great strategy will save you. The smaller your army gets, the less options you have.

If you look at the current standings, both :aether and :entropy went 1/5 during round one, but had a 3/3 "comeback" during round two. So a terrible round 1 does not always guarantee that you will also lose during round 2.

I will say this again, teams that suffered the most losses during round 2 were teams that had a bad starting Vault, and built round 1 decks without taking into consideration what happens if they lose during round 1. You always have to have a backup plan.


With #1 and #2 there, suicide decks will happen again.
Um.. how? When you discard only 24 and have the ability to convert cards to Pillars, you have much more control over what happens to your Vault. Unless the person discarding/salvaging has zero understanding of deckbuilding, you should always be able to not use suicide decks.

Just saying: "suicide decks will happen again", does not make it so. Please explain.

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Re: WAR - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6922.msg98750#msg98750
« Reply #114 on: June 22, 2010, 08:02:41 pm »
I don't know what to say. While you could say it makes more sense to lose troops, losing territories also makes sense. It's also more fun for people, and isn't this what is supposed to be the most important thing? I find that, if you lose a lot first round, using miserable decks to lose even more next rounds and get eliminated isn't as fun as defending your last "castle" and losing in a very difficult/tense game.

IMHO, being fun>being realistic. It's not like you could imitate a real War anyways.
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Offline the dictator

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Re: WAR - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6922.msg98797#msg98797
« Reply #115 on: June 22, 2010, 08:36:55 pm »
Yes, but the problem is, when losing, you are gaining a disadvantage, meaning you will lose more, meaning you will get more disadvantage, so you will lose more, etc.

In most games you get stronger when in a neat position, so there won't be a chain of losing.

And, the fact that losing CAUSES more losing, makes this war hard to play, because with a bad start, you don't have a significant change any more.
Well, of course. In real life if you go to war and suffer many defeats, you will be at a disadvantage and only luck or great strategy will save you. The smaller your army gets, the less options you have.

If you look at the current standings, both :aether and :entropy went 1/5 during round one, but had a 3/3 "comeback" during round two. So a terrible round 1 does not always guarantee that you will also lose during round 2.

I will say this again, teams that suffered the most losses during round 2 were teams that had a bad starting Vault, and built round 1 decks without taking into consideration what happens if they lose during round 1. You always have to have a backup plan.


(..)
Well, if I was losing in a war, I would want to make some kind of final strike, but that means you get suicide decks again, to be able to make one good deck.

And, this isn't all about realism, elements isn't completely realistic to, it is also about gameplay and balancing, and the now used vault method lacks the balancing.

I think having more cards should give you a slight disadvantage.
(thinks of it)

Hey, what if we allow, for every lost battle, each player in the team 1 upgraded card in their decks, that fits reality (because soldiers will get experience throughout the war), it balances a bit, and it makes deckbuilding more fun in later rounds.

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Scaredgirl

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Re: WAR - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6922.msg98820#msg98820
« Reply #116 on: June 22, 2010, 09:06:29 pm »
I don't know what to say. While you could say it makes more sense to lose troops, losing territories also makes sense.
That idea by Malduk, it's not territories really. It's the same old HP but now with a different name. Without a map, those "territories" are just a number.

Now if we had a map, then of course territories make more sense of course because you lose when you lose the land, not when you lose your troops.


It's also more fun for people, and isn't this what is supposed to be the most important thing? I find that, if you lose a lot first round, using miserable decks to lose even more next rounds and get eliminated isn't as fun as defending your last "castle" and losing in a very difficult/tense game.

IMHO, being fun>being realistic. It's not like you could imitate a real War anyways.
Yes, fun is the ultimate goal, but I personally don't see this as a choice between:

A) HP (or "territories") which is fun
B) no HP which is not fun.

Like I said in my previous post, :aether and :entropy went 1/5 during round one, but made a 3/3 "comeback" during round two. Early losses does not mean doom.

Imitating real life war has the advantage of the event being more "realistic" which makes it more fun for many people. If we go with unrealistic rules, the event might feel too much like an e-sport instead of an epic battle.

One example of not being realistic is the current seeding system. We just randomly choose opponents which is kind of weird. Are elementals wondering around the world and fighting the first other elemental they find? This is a good example where we should mimic how real war is done because in real war you choose your enemies.

Malduk

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Re: WAR - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6922.msg98862#msg98862
« Reply #117 on: June 22, 2010, 09:49:23 pm »
Sure it is about territories, if you're so dead set on reality. Only problem is you dont see them if you dont have a map. If and when map is introduced, it will work the same way, only with graphics - every team will get set amount of territories, and you will lose some and win some during fights.

You personally see something more fun than something else. Maybe asking players, especially those on the losing sides, about what IS FUN would give you a better idea what people enjoy about war, and what not.

3/3 is not a comeback. It is a loss of 72 cards, and only provided no one subbed there. 5/1 is not a comeback, it will give you same amount of cards you had before the round, but instead of 30 you handpicked, you'll get 30 of less value to you. 6/0 is slight comeback, giving you 6 cards back, none of which you may even be able to use.

Finally, as I mentioned many times already, this war is NOT immitating real war, nor losing cards in this manner is anything realistic. At least not any more realistic than any other suggestion.

In all honesty, I thought this thread is about giving feedback on current rules, with a goal of making it more competitive and enjoyable for its players. If you're having a rule set in stone, than I'm not sure why I bother.

Finally, there's nothing "epic" in people not caring anymore after a few rounds. Go see who's talking the most about war today, and on which teams those people are.

Quote
That is the basic idea of vault mechanics that can be improved or built upon. Let me point out what I believe are advantages of this system over system we had in war 1:

- Most important thing: fun factor. You wont see system breakdowns after a bad start like we saw in some teams as losing matches does not penalize you in making strategies. Also, discarding is not fun, looting is.
- No suicide decks
- Comebacks are possible, making war more tense and interesting
- Removing the situations where unlucky scenario devastated your Vault, giving more room for showing deckbuilding/playing skill
- Retreat!
- Easy to implement "map" idea in the future
- Doesnt NEED "trading cards" system (making things more simple), although it CAN be implemented
- Overall much more simple way of keeping track of everything really.

PuppyChow

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Re: WAR - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6922.msg98881#msg98881
« Reply #118 on: June 22, 2010, 10:25:14 pm »
Just popping in to say 6-0 is a 36 card comeback, not a 6 card comeback. Still not a lot, but it's a start.


And an idea just struck me. In Texas Holdem, the blinds go up as the game goes on. What if we did that in war? In the beginning, you only lose 15 cards for a loss but only gain three. Every round, the ante goes up by a few cards (Round 2 = lose 18, gain 3, Round 3 = lose 21, gain 4, Round 4 = lose 24, gain 4, Round 5 = lose 27, gain 5...). Of course the exact numbers could be changed, and maybe it would be best to make you always salvage 6 cards.

Since, after-all, the later battles in a war are generally more risky, desperate, and more important.

Malduk

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Re: WAR - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6922.msg98887#msg98887
« Reply #119 on: June 22, 2010, 10:29:30 pm »
Just popping in to say 6-0 is a 36 card comeback, not a 6 card comeback. Still not a lot, but it's a start.
Sorry, yes you're right of course. 6/0 is the only result that will put you into "comeback" category.

 

anything
blarg: