War - Standings

[Kael Hate]

We talked about the ruling and ok it will be played, but I don't agree with it any logical fashion. Maybe we can have it addressed for next war if not now?

It's for simplicity's sake. If we were to use this rule, we would have to wait for each team to clarify whether they are salvaging or not.

It could be simply declared before the duel rounds end and how many discarding down to. The exact cards would only have to be decided during deckbuilding as usual.

And if a team can't decide by the end of the round they follow through with the amount for that round.

[Malduk]

Well, if you don't want a suicidal deck, don't lose. You won't have to discard and can make decks.

Yes, funny and clever. It doesnt change the fact that free wins are detrimental to the event. didnt make a suicide deck, did. It sucks for the third element in this event that their competition got a free win. That is the issue, not losing. "Dont lose" is not a solution to the issue.

[TimerClock14]

Kael:
first off, if this was a real war, you'd probably be dead because you spent all this time arguing instead of looking behind you for ninja assassins.
Secondly: Rules are rules, fair or not they have been established and must be followed to maintain order. If you really think that a set of rules that govern 100+ people can be 'fair' 100% of the time; then I'd like to know what world you're living in.

[Sir Valimont]

We talked about the ruling and ok it will be played, but I don't agree with it any logical fashion. Maybe we can have it addressed for next war if not now?

It's for simplicity's sake. If we were to use this rule, we would have to wait for each team to clarify whether they are salvaging or not.

It could be simply declared before the duel rounds end and how many discarding down to. The exact cards would only have to be decided during deckbuilding as usual.

And if a team can't decide by the end of the round they follow through with the amount for that round.

A reasonable suggestion, but as you pointed out in the first above quote, the idea should be considered for next War and not this one.

[Scaredgirl]

We talked about the ruling and ok it will be played, but I don't agree with it any logical fashion. Maybe we can have it addressed for next war if not now?

It's for simplicity's sake. If we were to use this rule, we would have to wait for each team to clarify whether they are salvaging or not.

It could be simply declared before the duel rounds end and how many discarding down to. The exact cards would only have to be decided during deckbuilding as usual.

And if a team can't decide by the end of the round they follow through with the amount for that round.

Very likely not going to happen.

You see the beauty of the current system is that Vault totals get counted automatically, and Warmaster doesn't have to go check each of the 13 secret sections and see how many cards the teams are going to discard/salvage, then going back to standings and manually editing them. It might sound easy but it's not. Small tasks become huge when you have to do them 13 times.

Changes to converting rules will probably be the easiest way to fix this problem without having to do any drastic changes.

[Daxx]

I actually agree with Kael; in an ideal world I would support his ability to discard cards that he doesn't want in order to not have to field "useless" decks.

Understandably the game isn't currently set up with that in mind, which causes problems for the Warmasters. But ideally a slight inconvenience to them shouldn't result in the game being inflexible for actual players.

Perhaps this is worth discussing for next War.

[Malduk]

IIRC, in first war, we looked at base element number of cards, not total Vault size, which prevented illegal decks. It also gave teams some flexibility while building decks as they were never forced to field 100% of the Vault content.

[Sir Valimont]

I actually agree with Kael; in an ideal world I would support his ability to discard cards that he doesn't want in order to not have to field "useless" decks.

Understandably the game isn't currently set up with that in mind, which causes problems for the Warmasters. But ideally a slight inconvenience to them shouldn't result in the game being inflexible for actual players.

Perhaps this is worth discussing for next War.

Perhaps ... and maybe I should leave the larger discussion for then.

For the moment, I guess my 2¢ is that I don't really like to fix every "inconvenience" I find because I think it detracts from the strategy of War. A large part of success in my view is linked to vault balance, which is a relevant concern every step of the way, whether salvaging, discarding or even deckbuilding. Finding ways to discard unwanted cards takes away importance from really good vault management strategy. And besides, we can already convert 12 cards per round ... which should be a means to remove totally useless cards in and of itself.

Clearly the issue is worth discussing if several people think as much ... we should dedicate a thread to the conversation at a later point.

[QuantumT]

IIRC, in first war, we looked at base element number of cards, not total Vault size, which prevented illegal decks. It also gave teams some flexibility while building decks as they were never forced to field 100% of the Vault content.

That approach can be horribly exploited though.

[Malduk]

IIRC, in first war, we looked at base element number of cards, not total Vault size, which prevented illegal decks. It also gave teams some flexibility while building decks as they were never forced to field 100% of the Vault content.

That approach can be horribly exploited though.

It worked like a charm in first war, though we always had 30 card discards and there were no 12 card conversion. It beats being forced to give a free win though, which was the prime reason of introducing conversions IIRC. Also, now when teams are forced to use full Vault, they might as well make Vault public.
Exploited is a big word. I'd rather leave some strategic decisions to team, even if they choose to "exploit" it and salvage in the manner to field less players. I see it as lesser evil than this.

[QuantumT]

It worked like a charm in first war, though we always had 30 card discards and there were no 12 card conversion. It beats being forced to give a free win though, which was the prime reason of introducing conversions IIRC. Also, now when teams are forced to use full Vault, they might as well make Vault public.
Exploited is a big word. I'd rather leave some strategic decisions to team, even if they choose to "exploit" it and salvage in the manner to field less players. I see it as lesser evil than this.

The problem is bigger than that though. This isn't just a small exploit where a team might field one less player. It's completely broken. I'll demonstrate why.

Let's say I'm the general of team air and I decide that from the start I'm only going to have 15 air cards in my vault. That way, I'm the only one who ever plays. Starting with my 500 card vault, I could last for 17 rounds, without ever winning a match. I just sit there while the other teams eliminate each other.

[Memorystick]

It worked like a charm in first war, though we always had 30 card discards and there were no 12 card conversion. It beats being forced to give a free win though, which was the prime reason of introducing conversions IIRC. Also, now when teams are forced to use full Vault, they might as well make Vault public.
Exploited is a big word. I'd rather leave some strategic decisions to team, even if they choose to "exploit" it and salvage in the manner to field less players. I see it as lesser evil than this.

The problem is bigger than that though. This isn't just a small exploit where a team might field one less player. It's completely broken. I'll demonstrate why.

Let's say I'm the general of team air and I decide that from the start I'm only going to have 15 air cards in my vault. That way, I'm the only one who ever plays. Starting with my 500 card vault, I could last for 17 rounds, without ever winning a match. I just sit there while the other teams eliminate each other.

Well, the vault has to start with 50% of your element, and once discard reaches 30 you're out if you don't win, but yeah, discarding only cards from your element until you only have enough to field one or two decks is exactly why N cards of your element per player to determine how many players play isn't a good idea.